Ques on MahaBhrarta. Peep in/ DT Nt pg 25 - Page 17

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Y12345 thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
I agree with you both.
So @Mnx you are saying that hell and heaven is on earth itself overall? Could be true. Because I remember, it could be inferred from MB that everyone had to pay for their sins on earth itself, in this very life. Dury had to suffer for what he did, even Bheeshma. So, if someone paid for what they did, do they go to heaven? Or they gave up their good deeds as charity, do they go to hell?

Indra: You said that we will go in heaven if we did good deeds and stay until we do something bad. So does that mean, there is bad in heaven? This is very unlikely, because when we do bad, it also affects people around us, and would this be fair?

It's a very complex question to answer. I myself do not know the answer, and it confuses me every single time.
For instance, let's take Pandavas & Panchali, so they suffered a lot, does that mean, they did bad deeds in their previous lives? How do we explain gods who are born as humans, do they have a karmic account too?

Edited by Y12345 - 7 years ago
mnx12 thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago
As mentioned earlier, we dont have memories of what happened in past birth, where was the soul after death in our past birth till a new birth was taken. A body is needed by soul to perform karmas & experience result of good or bad deeds. Thats why even great soul waits for the right time to take birth. There must be a place where they wait before taking next birth. I dont have much practical knowledge in this aspect. Our scriptures have texts regarding this aspect.
Karmic account starts getting created from the moment a child is born. He comes with an account. Which gets edited based on his deeds, thoughts. Jeevan muktas consciously performs karmas which doesnt get credited in their karmic account. Hence reaching Aham Brhmasmi state is possible for them.
Pandavas & Panchali were born, appeared for a purpose. So they had to undergo very different Destiny.
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: Y12345

I like your versions better, I am not a fan of the theories surrounding the net, that because of his gem, he was immortal, and he was a fragment of Lord Shiva( this seems improbable to me, because even though Shiva is the destroyer, he couldn't made such a blunder, and that too being cursed by Krishna)
About killing children being a greater crime, I agree but if they would have been killed in war, would this have made a difference? Children shouldn't be allowed to participate in war. Yep, Uttura was ahead of 3 months, and the embryo was a fetus, about to be a human being. Maybe that's why, they say abortion after 3 months is killing a human, I used to think this incident sets out the foundation of abortion, but we cannot rely on this completely, since at that time, they used to conceive -magically!- and with all the magic/divinity involved, life was different, and we do not know if babies took 12 months to be born, it cannot be a general rule as Gandhari kids took way long to be born. It depends.

I think what differs Ashwathama to Dury is the intention. Dury wanted lots of things as we know: pandavas death, throne but he never wanted his clan destruction,but A went to pandavas camp with that sole intention: killing a clan. Even though he couldn't, intention was there, and he even attempted it, if Krishna didnt get involved, he would have been successful.



I don't believe he was a form of Lord Shiva either, because no form of Shivji could act the way he did. His gem may have made him immortal (the epic says it did), but it was also a symbol of his pride. He used the gem as an excuse to behave badly, believing no one could kill him due to being 'immortal', but once the Pandavas defeated him and removed the gem, his pride was broken and Krishna cursed him. The immortality that he thought a boon, then became a curse.

If we get into the technicality of human fertilization, the embryo is considered a human being the moment it develops a heart that starts beating, which is around 4-6 weeks. Any living entity that has a heartbeat is considered a live creature, whether human or animal. So I don't buy people's claims when they say that an unborn child is no more than a bunch of cells. That is only in the initial week or two after conception, but once the heartbeat is there, it's way more than cells. It's a live human being. But putting aside my own personal feelings on abortion, medical-wise, doctors do not complete it after 16 weeks or so, because by then all the major organs have developed and the fetus is well on its way to becoming a human baby. Also, after 16 weeks, an abortion is a risk to the mother's life also.

But regarding Uttara, what Abhimanyu tried to do to her was not an abortion but a purposeful miscarriage, so it doesn't matter what stage of pregnancy she was in. What he did was a sin, no matter how we look at it. And regarding the Upa-Pandavas, had they been killed on the battlefield, it wouldn't have been a sin, but they were killed in their sleep with no way to defend themselves. Such a cowardly act was a sin also. Along with the massacre of the rest of the camp, Ashvatthama committed multiple sins that night, and thus he suffered the worst punishment.,
Y12345 thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
Thanks guys for your great answers, and I think one thing we can see is that it is hugely complex, and maybe some answers we don't know. The questions are specific, but the things Krishna said to Arjun are broad thus this leaves room for interpretations( how i wished arjun asked krishna other questions as well!)
After reading what you tihnk, and think a bit, maybe hell and heaven is just an illusion, it is rather symbolic. I think Krishna said those who die in Kurushshtra will automatically go to heaven, then karmic accounts won't come into play, it is highly unlikely that Krishna will bypass his own 'laws". See, about repentance as well, he showed that if you truly repent, you can get foergiveness but it doesnt say if that will erase your accounts. Repentance is more like realizing your actions, but also owning your actions, so that your actions do not own you. We do not know if it can be achieved by just a state of mind, or one has to go to vanvas and acute penance to repent. Example how would a 21th century repent? Charity? Prayers? but how do we know it's enough?
About one act can negate another act is confusing too, impossible to assess the correct degree. For instance, one person, murdering someone on monday and doing charity on sunday. Whatever he does, will he be able to undo what he did? Repentance is important, but it is for one personal satisfaction, and while repenting, we cannot expect anything because we should fulfil our duty without expectations. But when we are repenting\, we are expecting something-to be forgiven( not sure if this is clear)

Some may do it or not, and it is difficult to draw the line, and if repentance has truly been achieved. For pandavas case, it was crystal clear but for others, it cannot be said. If heaven is for pure good, then nobody can ever get there, we are all grey. It's like a clear glass of water but once something gets in there, it is never the same. And as I said, difficult to draw the lines, and classify what was wrong or not. If we look it philosophically, it is easy to tell but even harder once you bring norms/societal issues etc. But once we leave the physical body, then it becomes easy to classify again.

Every incident in MB (almost ) indicates that everything is predestined. Who lived, who died by whom, and in some texts it is said that krishna knew outcome of war, he was just there to steer the war in pandavas direction to make sure everyone satisfies their duty like Amba killing Bheeshma, Drist killing drona. Hence if Destiny comes into play, how do we explain birth/rebirth?

Hence, maybe hell/heaven is one representation of how somebody lived his life. Like a life movie haha but going in hell to suffer again, is pointless because, that person will be born again to suffer. A soul is free, free from pain and ties, eternal. Folk tales really confuses me, like I read one when it says when Karna went to hell(or heaven haha I forgot where he went) and he didnt get food, because he never donated food as he wasn't allowed to, due to his caste, people never accepted food from him, this indicates that hell/heaven is some kind of temporary residential place, and I find this hard to believe. Imagine people in hell keep doing bad things again and again!

I read somewhere in Greek mythology( sorry for that and also texts are scattered so) but it says that all our pain and suffering goes into hell, the negativity, bad, goes in hell, not us. Think of it like dementors(in Harry Potter), a manifestation of the bad in us ( Bg 7.4 Earth, water, re, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.)
We are soul, we are energy, energy cannot be created nor destroyed as per law of physics, and energy whether is positive or negative will always be here. Energy can only be transformed from one form to another, again law of physics. Thus, it can also get transformed and goes into hell or heaven. Hell, according to Greek mythology is the underground, heaven is up there, when those energies gets distributed, it is what keeps the middle world in place. Balance, equilibrium.

Krishna says more or less the same when the world has had enough of bad, it is when a new world has to be born. But we should also bear in mind, that since energy cannot be destroyed, it will always be there, even after mass destruction.
mnx12 thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago
Thats why knowledge of various fields in Spirituality is needed.
Being an observer with neutral mind will solve few mysteries. Good or bad is created as a thought in mind. Then energy is attracted or created to materialize that idea. Which becomes reality. Then others react over it. Action, reaction & chain of events follows, resulting in few people getting involved creating a Karmic account.
By remaining detached one can stop getting involved in Karmic cycle but can be a part of the people involved.
Hence Gyan, is very much important for liberation. With true knowlede, meditation etc a calm & clear state of mind can be achieved. Thoughtless mind means no thoughts, ideas, only performing karmas without getting attached to them. No creating new Karmas. Only clearing past Karmic accounts. Which may lead to liberation.
Lord Krishna has said in Geeta, "Mana eva manushyanam karanam bandha mokshayo".
Mind is the root cause of the Karmas. Control it with Spiritual practice, knowlede. Life can be very different after that.
paartha thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
Great questions (Yenna) and answers (mnx12), loved them.
Lord Krishna says in the Gita, that whoever reaches him (meaning Parabrahma) only those will be truly liberated from the cycle of further births and deaths. Lord Krishna says, heavenly pleasures are temporary and will not give us total liberation from the karmic cycle.

Regarding true repentance, it is an act which we genuinely do from our heart, feeling empathy for the victims etc., so Lord will always show his mercy on such individuals.

These questions at the outset may seem to be very simple to understand, but to me they are very deep and complex to understand, let alone answer them. May be, that is why, there are various paths shown by the Lord in the Gita to attain liberation, it could be Bhakthi marg, Karma marg or Gnana/Yog marg. So, based on our inclination/capacity, we may follow one of such path.


RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
I don't think true repentance is merely feeling guilty about one's actions. It's more than that. It's when a person meditates on God and denies himself all those pleasures and privileges that make human life comfortable. For example, the Pandavas willingly going into exile for 13 years and denying themselves the royal luxuries and riches they had become accustomed to and earned through their deeds. They didn't have to accept exile. They could have revolted and taken back Indraprastha from the Kauravas by force, but they accepted the exile as their form of repentance, staying silent in the face of Draupadi's humiliation and in Yudhisthira's case, gambling away his brothers and wife.

True repentance is hard work, thus not many human beings are able to do it and take the easier way out by justifying their sins, but it's also not impossible. Even for a person who murdered someone, the sin he accumulated is great and will take many years and possibly even many lives before he is able to absolve himself of it, but with true repentance God will forgive him. How that repentance looks like is different for every person, but I think we all know how to truly repent for our wrong actions. It's just the matter of whether we can kill our ego and do it, that's all.
Edited by ..RamKiJanaki.. - 7 years ago
paartha thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
@..RamKiJanaki.. Yes, you are absolutely right. Repentance does not merely include feeling guilty about our mistakes but performing actions as well. Liked the way, how you have compared the repentance part of the Pandavas, which indeed was a hard thing to do, specially knowing that Shakuni swindled them. Yes, being humble and accepting our mistake is the starting point and as you have rightly said, for all that to happen, first we have to let go our ego.

Y12345 thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
Btw guys, did Dury & Shakuni ever repented? Like shakuni, last day, he fought a fruitless battle, he knew he was going to lose, and he could have go to his kingdom living happily ever after? and when he died, he died a quick death without suffering like Abhimanyu did.

RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: Y12345

Btw guys, did Dury & Shakuni ever repented? Like shakuni, last day, he fought a fruitless battle, he knew he was going to lose, and he could have go to his kingdom living happily ever after? and when he died, he died a quick death without suffering like Abhimanyu did.


I don't know if Shakuni ever repented, as the epic doesn't focus too much on the inner thoughts of his character, but I think Duryodhan did repent in his last moments. I remember reading about him lamenting about his choices, and how his choices caused the destruction of his clan. I'm not entirely sure if this is in the original epic or not, but I read it somewhere.

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