Ques on MahaBhrarta. Peep in/ DT Nt pg 25 - Page 29

Guys : Let's talk about the concept of love in MB. Shall we?

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

I don't think Krishna stopped him or made him take a vow. Aside we know the Divyastras weren't that destructive, Ashwathama used it and not much damage happened. Even if we remove Krishna from picture the Divyastra could only kill the baby, nothing more. So those could definitely be used for lesser damage

Originally posted by: Y12345

"Hypocrisy, pride, self-conceit, wrath, arrogance and ignorance belong, O Partha, to him who is born to the heritage of the demons.” ~ The Gita, XVI. 4

(Pride= inflated form of ego)

Let man uplift the self (ego) by the self; let the self not be self-degraded (cast down). Indeed, the self is its own friend; and the self is its own enemy. For him whose self (ego) has been conquered by the Self (soul), the Self is the friend of the self; but verily, the Self behaves inimically, as an enemy, toward the self that is not subdued. — The Bhagavad Gita VI:

How important is our ego?

If there is no ego, we lost our sense of self. We forget who we are.

See, when arjun who was maybe full of ego ( cause he wanted to kill karna) and suddenly did not want to kill Karna using treachery, Krishna did showed him the universe, and talked about ego death which Viswasrti beautifully explained above.

Ego is "I" and it's that very boundary between humans and nature, the concept of what's wrong or right stems from the ego. The ego is the “I.” It is how you see yourself. It is the part of your mind that identifies with traits, beliefs, and habits. Your ego is an unconscious part of your mind.

So, if we experience an ego death, its just like, we won't know what's right or wrong, what's dharma and adarma( now killing an unarmed karma and treachery according to the law of that time and the social construct was wrong but yet, when Krishna explains that, if we steered from our ego, then it wouldn't really matter.

So, I don't know if you guys are getting the analysis, but it seems to me, that ego is and will be a part of life.

MB in my interpretation says that we need to realize what is our ego and what it does. We need to let go of it when we have to, and that's the balance of life. But it does not suggest giving up our ego completely, what it preaches according to me, is ego work.

Do you guys think that a person without ego will go on and do "bad things " according to social constructs? If these social constraints didnt exist in that person dictionary, so how can we say he was wrong? See where I am going with this.

You are not looking to “kill” the ego, or deny its existence. The ego is your protector and has been a part of your psyche since you were a small child to help you cope. You want to learn to accept your ego as something separate from yourself.

Ego is important, a person without ego might just go crazy, might free be free from suffering yes, but that's just a fancy world. Apply this in modern century. Can we altogether give up on our ego? Or we can just temporarily do it?

Without a guard you can decide how you feel, what you think, and how you choose to respond rather than having your ego decide that for you.

Unless we plan on being monk in the woods, but like in normal 21th century, how do we integrate this ego death experience into our normal daily life?

Looking forward to reading your answers

Very good questions you put in front of us to ponder Yenna. 🤗

The Ego, Aham, is one of the most misunderstood terms in many religions. In its purest and absolute sense, ego or Aham is identical with the Self as you rightly mentioned above. Hence, we have mahavakyas that equate the Aham with Brahman himself as --Aham Brahmasmi or with the Atman. However, when this ego is subject to the impurity of egoism > ahamkar, the being develops a false sense of identity and accepts it as true!

In the Bhagavadgita you will find two types of references to ego > aham, one in a subjective sense as “I am” and the other in an objective sense as a reference to the individuality or the sense of self. For example, when Arjuna says,

“kathaṃ bhīṣmam ahaṃ sāṅkhye droṇaṃ ca madhusūdana,” which means” How I am going to attack Bhishma and Drona in the battlefield, O Madhusudhana,” he is using aham in the subjective sense to refer to himself.

However, when Krishna says, “nirmamo nirahaṃkāraḥ sa śāntim adhigacchhati,” which means, “those without the sense of ownership and egoism attain peace,” he is referring to aham in an objective sense as egoism, which appears in BG many times throughout.

The Self is universal, eternal, one and without divisions>>>> separate from Yenna and Viswasruti who are limited versions of that universal Self. The expansive or exalted feeling that I am everything and I am all this does not constitute egoism. However, the feeling that I am so and so, or I have this and that constitute egoism or ahamkar. When the universal Self is covered with the impurities of delusion and ignorance, it develops this limited view of itself as a separate entity, which we recognize as ego.

Thus, the ego is the feeling of separateness, the sense of duality, or the idea of being distinct and different from others. It is the false perception of oneself as a separate being or a limited being. Egoism creates the limitations of space and time in which we become stuck!! Since it exists in all of us as individual consciousness, it is a universal feeling. Ahamkar is that which is shaped by egoism. It manifests in us in several ways. Such as --- Ownership and doership, desires and attachments, pride and arrogance, self-esteem, selfishness, self-centeredness, aggression and competitiveness , judgment, opinions, and criticism, identification with the mind and body, fear, suffering, anxiety, anger, stress, and so on.

When a person is overly proud and conceited, we say he has a lot of aham, means he is very egoistic. Any feeling, thought, idea, expression, action or response which arises in a state of duality or the predicate state of subject and object has ego as its source. In worldly life, you cannot live without it. You need it to assert yourself, survive and succeed. However, in spiritual life it becomes a barrier to liberation. In Shaivism, it is referred to as anava, meaning atomicity or acting like an atom. Egoism makes a living being (jiva) feel separate and small.

The ego is a universal phenomenon. Everyone has an ego. Even gods and the highest Isvara has it. Whoever manifests or becomes distinguished from Brahman as a being has it.

However, its nature varies from being to being due to the predominance of gunas.Our egos are mixed with light and darkness. Hence, our behavior and conduct also vary. I hope you got the desired answer.

Originally posted by: Y12345

Yeah but this makes you disconnected, but at the same time connected with your surrounding in a weird way. But, it's a good place to be, it makes you experience suffering differently( you do not feel suffering that stems from our ego.

I will just say, that the key is to learn how to alternate and balance between those two worlds. The secret is the balance.

Mind going into more details how you are still struggling?

The subjective and objective aspects of ego are personified in the Bhagavadgita as Krishna and Arjuna. Lord Krishna personifies the universal Self with the purest and indistinguishable ego, whereas Arjuna stands symbolically for the limited self or the impure ego consciousness, which is responsible for the feelings of separation and individuality.

Any suffering or any feeling or emotion that we experience, even a little disturbance or discomfort, is due to ego. In the perceptual world, it is the source of all our knowledge, perceptions, feelings, and experience. In truth it is but a reflection of the Self only, which is the purest reality or pure consciousness. However, because it remains enveloped by the Nature’s impure realities tattvas, of which the mind and ego are a part and form the ego consciousness, one acts like an individual with a limited entity.

Arjuna's suffering is because of his limited knowledge, his sense of separateness, his identification with his body rather than his soul, his belief that he is the doer of his actions and his anxiety about the results of his actions. Because of its limited knowledge, the ego is usually ignorant and confused. These qualities are reflected in Arjuna's suffering and his doubts and anxieties about fighting with his opponents. His suffering is the suffering of his ego. Indeed, in everyone it is the ego which is responsible for suffering, anger, fear, doubt, desire, attachment, etc.

The ego makes us believe that we are the doers of our actions and responsible for them. Because of that we engage in desire-ridden actions and desire for their fruit, whereby we incur karma and remain bound to the mortal world. As the Bhagavadgita states, "All types of action are performed by the gunas, which arise from Nature. Deluded by the ego, the being, thus thinks, "I am the doer." The Bhagavadgita suggests that if you think, “I am the eternal, universal Self,” and live accordingly, your actions do not bind you. However, “If you think I am this person with this name and form,” and perform actions with that selfish and limited notion, they will bind you. Therefore, it is better to stabilize your identity in the universal Self rather than in your limited self.

Ultimately, BG told us >>>> We really live in a world of projections and apparitions. The people we meet are not what they really are both literally and figuratively. Even after you spend a lifetime with them, you will not know them fully. Our unity is an illusion. Our relationships are fragile. No wonder, the followers of nondualism argue that the world is an illusion. The world itself is a projection of God, and the people who live in it are also projections.

Therefore, consider yourself an eternal Self. Identify yourself with it, instead of accepting yourself as your mind and body and becoming obsessed with your looks, or your name, wealth and status. Know that in the core of your being, in the silence of your heart, and in the absence of all seeking and striving, you dissolve all boundaries and enter the vast, endless space of Brahman.

Originally posted by: Viswasruti

The Bhagavad Gita explained Ego and Egoism very clearly.

The subjective and objective aspects of ego are personified in the Bhagavadgita as Krishna and Arjuna. Lord Krishna personifies the universal Self with the purest and indistinguishable ego, whereas Arjuna stands symbolically for the limited self or the impure ego consciousness, which is responsible for the feelings of separation and individuality.

Any suffering or any feeling or emotion that we experience, even a little disturbance or discomfort, is due to ego. In the perceptual world, it is the source of all our knowledge, perceptions, feelings, and experience. In truth it is but a reflection of the Self only, which is the purest reality or pure consciousness. However, because it remains enveloped by the Nature’s impure realities tattvas, of which the mind and ego are a part and form the ego consciousness, one acts like an individual with a limited entity.

Arjuna's suffering is because of his limited knowledge, his sense of separateness, his identification with his body rather than his soul, his belief that he is the doer of his actions and his anxiety about the results of his actions. Because of its limited knowledge, the ego is usually ignorant and confused. These qualities are reflected in Arjuna's suffering and his doubts and anxieties about fighting with his opponents. His suffering is the suffering of his ego. Indeed, in everyone it is the ego which is responsible for suffering, anger, fear, doubt, desire, attachment, etc.

The ego makes us believe that we are the doers of our actions and responsible for them. Because of that we engage in desire-ridden actions and desire for their fruit, whereby we incur karma and remain bound to the mortal world. As the Bhagavadgita states, "All types of action are performed by the gunas, which arise from Nature. Deluded by the ego, the being, thus thinks, "I am the doer." The Bhagavadgita suggests that if you think, “I am the eternal, universal Self,” and live accordingly, your actions do not bind you. However, “If you think I am this person with this name and form,” and perform actions with that selfish and limited notion, they will bind you. Therefore, it is better to stabilize your identity in the universal Self rather than in your limited self.

Ultimately, BG told us >>>> We really live in a world of projections and apparitions. The people we meet are not what they really are both literally and figuratively. Even after you spend a lifetime with them, you will not know them fully. Our unity is an illusion. Our relationships are fragile. No wonder, the followers of nondualism argue that the world is an illusion. The world itself is a projection of God, and the people who live in it are also projections.

Therefore, consider yourself an eternal Self. Identify yourself with it, instead of accepting yourself as your mind and body and becoming obsessed with your looks, or your name, wealth and status. Know that in the core of your being, in the silence of your heart, and in the absence of all seeking and striving, you dissolve all boundaries and enter the vast, endless space of Brahman.

That's a nice explanation Viswa.

The thing I like about Hinduism is that we are open to interpretation and not bound by a book. That's what differenciates us with other major religions on this earth.

The way you explained the two meanings of Aham is so true

🙏🙏

Off topic are the results for DT awards out? I didn't see the same

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Off topic are the results for DT awards out? I didn't see the same

Thanks for the encouraging words.

Here is the link --- https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/ghum-hai-kisikey-pyaar-meiin/5202940/if-annual-awards-2020-sheep-award-p-18

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

That's a nice explanation Viswa.

The thing I like about Hinduism is that we are open to interpretation and not bound by a book. That's what differenciates us with other major religions on this earth.

The way you explained the two meanings of Aham is so true

🙏🙏

Thanks for your answers V. Reading your answers make me feel happy that I decided to create this thread.

I loved reading your replies on the subjective & objective aspects of ego; the way you explain is just very good

Do you guys know where concepts of ego is discussed in the BG other than the war itself?

I do think though, that ego has a purpose which is why God created with ego but there is also a reason why we were blessed by the BG, and this knowledge

See, the ultimate loss of ego means loss of suffering but how does it work in practice? We have a body with nerves for suffering. We have emotions. Learning how to control emotions does not mean not being able to feel it.

Ego death is terrifying. Its scary. Its as if you are dying. When it starts to happen, you do not even know that its happening, but then, it does, and as every human being on this planet, you will try to fight it; you will pray that it doesn't happen because its too scary. That's just us humans. What I am taking about, is a survival instinct of us not wanting to "die" ( since ego death feels like death)

{ We cannot feel what MB characters are feeling but we can interpret what Arjuna probably must have felt, and he was lucky to have Lord Krishna, to guide him,}

So moments before ego is a battle of mind, high stress level, trying hard to fight back but then when it happens, there is no fear, there is no subjective thoughts( such as am I gonna die, this feel like I'm..)

The person undergoing the ego death does no longer know that he is undergoing an ego death. There are no thoughts. Nothingness. Probably how it is when we were born. Yeah, that, nothing.

Read closely the MB & BG, the part where Krishna explains the soul & the ego. Does Arjun experience an ego death? Can he? its practically difficult for him to, and I personally don't feel he does. What he does, [if we read the parts well is this almost scary moment, this battle, the knowledge that our body is separate from its soul is in itself scary for him. So he doesn't get the experience, but the knowledge only.

(or Krishna magically kills his ego, no?? that would be dumb because that would be doing the work for him, which led me to believe that Arjun only had the knowledge, he didn't experience the ego.

[ Its a different debate if Karna had one when he is about to die and Krishna talks to him, does he? but then the question is really what's the point of this knowledge when he is about to die and wont be able to do anything with that while with Arjun, Krishna imparts this knowledge for him to kill Karna and do his duty among other things ]

So this specific moment in MB is special for me as it invokes loads of answers, to questions I have been asking repeatedly.

First, do we need to experience it to understand it? is ego loss so complex or we can read MB & learn? Experience VS understanding. But but then again, when your ego is lost, you just cannot understand, you cannot rationalize your thoughts, your thoughts are not even your thoughts. You float, you are a soul, powerful, yet powerful, but you just exist. So, idk, maybe learning about it, experiencing it, then reflecting on that experience is the way to go! Needs your views guys.

My second dilemma, is what I asked before, did somebody look closely, on how Arjuna life changed after the war and after Krishna talked to him?

any good resources on how?

Because, I really wanna know how we can integrate this valuable knowledge in the 21th century when we need jobs to pay bills, look after family etc, and thrive. It is kind of a privilege to be able to afford meditating on the mountains. I also hate to believe that the BG is irrelevant in todays world, there has to be a way. But how? Just how? Lord Krishna, come back please! This sad mean world needs you