B R Chopra portrayal of Karna with reference to KMG - Page 16

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

I read it and found it quite illogical, Karna wouldnt have gatecrashed the guru Dakshina war, it was specifically only Pandavas and Kaurava's, Drona made it clear.

And supposedly I have used logic in my post and based it on KMG and the Critical edition. I didnt make it out of thin air, both of the translations support my claim .

Originally posted by: varaali

As I have written earlier, when Vyasa means Brahmastra he means Brahmastra and when he means Brahmashira he means Brahmashira.

See my post here

There need be no confusion on this point. I have given the relevant line numbers in case anyone wants to confirm.

He may have fired the brahmastra right before his death, but at the precise moment, the final moment,Parashurama's curse came into effect.

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

Bhima and Karna do not have 2:1 report card in Kurekshetra,

Karna defeated Bhima almost 10 times and Bhima defeated Karna five times.

Karna got Drupad under his sway when he did his sole digvijay, as a matter of fact, Karna got almost the whole world under his sway.

In Kurukshetra - Drupad was defeated by Karna quite a number of times.

As for Guru Dakshina war - The CE does not have Karna in the Gurudakshina war, in KMG - it is strongly forced that it was Gandhari's son Karna, not Radha's son Karna.

Originally posted by: varaali

Link for the CE is here http://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/mahabharata-bori.html

Prof Bibek Debroy has translated the CE in English in 8 volumes and can be bought online .

KMG was published before the CE.

Originally posted by: shindes

Hi Varaali,

The link gives me 4 options,: ITRANS Text, xdvng Font HTML, Devanagari and Devanagari HTML.

Are all of these in Sanskrit? Or does any of them carry English translation?

Originally posted by: shindes

Gurudakshina occurs after rang-bhoomi.

If Karna had the audacity to gatecrash the rangbhoomi meant 'only for Hastinapur princes', any reason he would not gatecrash/accompany Duryodhan on Gurudakshina?

Drona would not object, since he has already seen Dhritarashtra/Duryodhana rewarding a gatecrasher with a kingdom and crown, instead of rebuking him.

After rangbhoomi, the gatecrasher now has an official kingdom, a crown, an ally in Duryodhan/Dhritarashtra and he was anyways Drona's student at gurukul.

Nothing stops Karna from participating with Kuru princes in Gurudakshina, although it is 'primarily for Hastinapur princes.', just as Rangbhoomi was supposed to be.

Originally posted by: shindes

The Drupad-Karna duels occur at least 2 times in MB. Once at Gurudakshina and then at Karna's campaign post Gandharwa.

Both win one duel/skirmish each. So why should the results of the 2nd duel prove Drupad inferior?

If that is so, then Bheem 'brings Anga ruler under his sway' during Rajsuya yagna in eastern direction. He also overpowers Karna mention multiple times on day 16; whereas the reverse occurs at day 17. So now who is superior?

Why call Drupad a 'nothing'?

Varaali, first of all, an apology. Wanted to respond earlier but imp o/s clients didn't permit any good time.

First admission of laity. As an ordinary reader, I don't have capacity to understand subtleties of this great Epic in its full glory. But still, as an avid reader, I do like to know form more knowledgeable and hence these bothers.

Now reasons for the selection;

In pair or triad, these tale-telling shlokas are perched in several chapters spanning childhood and completion history of the princes (and Karna). Following three instances are distinctly evincing. (Mid pair contains the shloka that I had mentioned later- CE 0119043). There is a thematic coherence and underlying continuity that wud catch one's attention. They are- 1) Adivansavtarana (01055027/8/9) 2) Sambhava (01119043/4) 3) Sambhava (01129055/6)

From Adivansavtarana- chapter 55:

tams tatharupaviryaujah sampannan paurasammata

namrsyan kuravo drstva pandavan sriyaso bhrtah. (01055007) CE

tato duryodhanah krurah karnas ca sahasaubalah

tesam nigrahanirvasan vividhams te samacaran. (01055008) CE

dadav atha visam papo bhimaya dhrtarstarajah

jarayam asa tad virah sahannena vrakodara. (01055009) CE

From Sambhava, chapter 119

vikaram na hay ajanayat sutiksnam api tad visam

bhima samhanano bhimas tad apy ajarayat tatah. (01119042) CE

evam duryodhanah karnah sakunis chapi saubalah

anekair abhyupayais tan jighamsanti sma Pandavan. (01119043) CE

Then from 129th chapter-

[vai]

Pranadhikam bhimsenam krtavidyam dhanamjayam

duryodhano laksayitva paryatapyata durmatih. (01129001) CE

tato vaikartanah karnah sakunis capi saubalah

anekair abhyupayais tan jighamsanti sma pandavan. (01129002) CE

...First, in Adivansavatarana, as a summary of overall scheme of the affairs. Then as an identifying malady of an evil resolve that has become their goal and aim of the actions (poisoning nad others) in chapter 119 of Sambhava Parva: The event proper' and specific link'- so to say. And then again in chapter 129, as progression of the same malady that was soon to fester into a much serious plot - (whether Kanika counsels or not- though he indeed does)

The point is-

- The author is narrating a distinct axis of trio- "Duryodhan, karna, Sakuni capi saubala"...it's similar construction in all three places.

- The stress is also on anakair'/vividham. That is, they were not isolated incidents. There were strings of attempts- all of which were neither described by author, nor he mentions them through Pandavas' as they were advised restraint' by Vidura'. ...Notice, anaiker...line is repeated word to word in 119 and 129.

- The author has further substantiated these charges at two other places. But that's for other time.

... a few more points...but that should be later. Hope I am not overreaching too wide.😆

Originally posted by: varaali

As I have written earlier, when Vyasa means Brahmastra he means Brahmastra and when he means Brahmashira he means Brahmashira.

See my post here

There need be no confusion on this point. I have given the relevant line numbers in case anyone wants to confirm.

He may have fired the brahmastra right before his death, but at the precise moment, the final moment,Parashurama's curse came into effect.