Dharmakshetra :) - Page 57

well, karna is just a human.

Who said he was a God? 😆 He was a human. So were the others, so are we all.

Originally posted by: Brishti_Sarkar

a)Not being a good friend - As a friend you should see that your friend is doing the correct thing and not going around planning how to kill his cousins. Just saying "I am forveer in your debt" is not the hallmark of a good friend. Karna did nothing to protect Duryodhan from becoming an outright Adharmi.

b) Wishing for the bad of people without reason- Pandavas and Draupadi. What did they do to him that he was so jealous of Arjuna since Gurukul? He was involved in poisoning Bheem, he was involved in Lakshagriha conspiracy where KUNTi too was involved. I am so eager to make Kunti shout at Karna at trial but that will be too much so bunking it.

c) Not respecting elders- Includes Dronacharya and Bheeshma. Drona was his guru and its a student's duty to listen to him and not demand things for killing someone. How unfair. A bad student. Apart from that as Semanti mentions numerous insults of Bheeshma, Vidur, Drona etc.

d) Verbal assault of a woman- Whatever anyone says I have known Karna to have called Draupadi a wh**e and that is nothing strange. Karna was self obsessed and he was capable of saying something like that to take revenge of rejection. Also, Draupadi was wife of Pandavas and ARJUNA. Dury';s object of lust so...

e)Keshav ko bandi banane ka prachesta - This is typical DK so not explaining. How about including not accepting Kunti's proposal before war in order to stop the war from Dury's side 😉 since not stopping war is such a big arop for people.

f) Breaking loyalty - If he would be loyal towards Duryodhan, than he would never promise Kunti of not killing the four Ps except Arjuna. I guess Karna had the capability to fight the Ps and he left that when Duryodhan expected only him to actually fight and kill the Pandavas. If he would be loyal towards Kunti (for some minutes after knowing the truth) then he would not say he will kill Arjun and come to Kunti's side.
If he would be loyal towards righteousness and dharma, then the question of supporting Dury never arises.

g) Being too proud of himself and for his own good going towards Adharma - I guess this needs to explanation

Can i give my POV on these accusations as well please 😊

1)Just saying "I am forveer in your debt" is not the hallmark of a good friend.
Can you please give me the citation for when Karna says this

This is just what modern readers and viewers think but Karna himself never says that the reason he is supporting Dury is because feels he is in debt or something.The only time when he says something close to this is when kunti comes and asks him to join the pandvas is when he says that he must support Dury just like Dury supported him

Otherwise in other acts he supported dury because they were friends hence out of friendship and loyalty he supported Dury just like pandavs supported Yudi as he was their brother.Juts like pandavas never stopped Yudi from making wrong decisions for example burning of Nishada's at lakshagarah or dice game neither did karna.I mean if we talk about loyalty then both karna and pandvas are guilty of blind loyalty at times.So either we accuse both or none

2)Regarding his involvement in Bhima's poisoning well hmm i don't think he was involved in Bhima's posing since krishna ji's accusation regarding this towards Karna is not there in CE.When krishna ji accuses karna in the end its all about dice hall poisoning part is not there in CE so i dont think he was involved

Lakshagarah yes he was involved and should be accused but then pandvas were also involved in the actual burning.SO i guess no one comes out as a good guy in the lakshagarah incident

Regarding Arjuna hmm jelaousy or competitiveness one can take either. being competitive is not exactly an accusation.I mean what Arjuna felt for eklavya is the same that karna felt for Arjuna.It was competition so not an accusation

3)This one i agree but don't agree that it was wrong to ask Drona for the weapon if he felt he was capable of it he asked Drona ,Drona refused that is the end of it.He didn't force Drona to give to him.Regarding his harsh words to other elders there i agree he was wrong

4)Again Drauapdi agree but he didnt humiliate Drauapdi as revenge for rejection.Again Drauapdi rejecting Karna is an interpolation since its not part of CE and even KMg mentions it once.So it was no revenge it was just mob mentality in any case no matter the reason it was wrong

5 and 6)Now this depends on how you look at it.definitely not an accusation as per me

He was loyal to Dury and stood by his loyalty even if it meant risking his life and all the pleasure he could have gotten had he accepted kunti and krishna ji offer

He rejected all the pleasures and choose death to stand by a friend

He tried to to justice to all to the mother who abandoned him and to the friend who supported him.To Dury by actually fighting the war on his side refusing to side with his brother's and trying to kill Arjuna for him

His mother by sparing the life of her 4 son's

So in short things he should be accused of as per me

1)Passive involvement in lakshagarh plot (as long as pandvas are also accused of the same)

2)Harsh words to elder's at times

3)His involvement in dice hall incident

4)Encouraging Dury to make panadavs jealous when they were in exile.Kicking a person when he is down is really not right

5)If Dury was allowed to accuse in DK then i think Dury should have accused him of hiding his true identity from Dury once he came to know of it.This would have been an interesting accusation

Originally posted by: AnuMP

Nowhere is it written that she was happy either. Am not saying she was unhappy, just that we don't know enough to claim she was or that she accepted either. So no, I don't have to conclude that. In fact there are at least 2 versions that either say outright it suggest that she was married to only Yudhi. How do we know that the popular version was what Vyasa wrote? Even if it was in Sanskrit, it was handed down orally for millenia before getting written down. So how do we know that the Indo version or the Tamil version is not the least adulterated? We dont.

Even after she has had a lot of time to think about it, Panchali tears a strip off Yudhi in Vana parva and blames him for the deaths after the war.

Anu other than Indonesian version which other version claims she was only yudi's wife?

Besides CE which is currently one of the most reliable version also claims she was wife of all pandavas

Originally posted by: indianprincess

I still maintain my point yudi was not wrong in desiring HP, just a few weeks ago he conducted rajsuya yajna by subjugating other kings and establishing his supremacy . Again pls don't judge according to modern standards, dyut was not a bad thing then. Many kings had used method before for winning kingdoms.

The betting of his brothers and wife was wrong and that has no justification.Even the biggest yudi fan will agree on this.

I agree Yudi shouldn't be blamed for desiring HP but then we shouldn't blame Dury for desiring IP either

Dury wanted to hold the dice game because he wanted IP(there was no plan of humiliating Drau) and Yudi continued playing because he wanted HP

So if we dont balme Yudi then lets not blame Dury as well for inviting pandvas to HP

What Yudi and co and Dury and co both should be blamed for is their involvement in Draupadi's humiliation and Yudi for human staking

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

Anu other than Indonesian version which other version claims she was only yudi's wife?

Besides CE which is currently one of the most reliable version also claims she was wife of all pandavas

Sadhana

Sabhayata, it can be proved easily Karna was nowhere a student of Drona. We have done that many times in AT. He was a student of Parashurama only. That too has reference, trust me. So Karna cannot be accused for anything happened before his entry through the arena programme. He did not even know PKs before that.
So is his involvement in Lakshagriha episode. There was a Kanika/Kama, the minister of Dhrit, present during Laksha griha conspiracy. Though Karna's name appears once, he doesn't seem to be a part of it. When all other persons - Drona, Bheeshma, Kripa, Gandhaari etc, though not as a part of planning - are repeatedly mentioned many times in Laksha griha episodes & Karna is missing which is clearly suspicious.
Harsh words to elders because they deserved it. Being an elder does not give someone the right to insult a younger one for no reasons. Being an elder does not mean that person must be always right. So when accused / insulted for no reasons, whoever does that, deserves tit for tat replies. In case of Karna, Bheeshma's arguments/aarops were pointless. So were the others & he normally reacted to that. That is no mistake.
About DS, I am tired writing.
And the ghosha yatra, that was only when Duryodhana threatened him of doing suicide. Dury wanted to attack & kill Ps, but it was Karna who suggested a wealth showing parade. I think Dury's idea was better. This dukh bhari kahaani would have ended there itself.
At the end of the day, Dury, by no mean did nothing bad to Karna. So why would he not support him? And Karna had no business in what Dury wanted to do & what not wanted to do. As long as there is nothing which proves Karna supported Dury in whatever he did, except in Ghosha yatra, it is better we think he was either opposite to that or he was a neutral type person.

😆 Someone kill me now. I am going to support Karna in this. But being an elder does not automatically make you right or worthy of respect. In fact, wasn't that the problem in the DS? The elders and so called betters clinging to their version of 'subtle' morality?

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

Sabhayata, it can be proved easily Karna was nowhere a student of Drona. We have done that many times in AT. He was a student of Parashurama only. That too has reference, trust me. So Karna cannot be accused for anything happened before his entry through the arena programme. He did not even know PKs before that.
So is his involvement in Lakshagriha episode. There was a Kanika/Kama, the minister of Dhrit, present during Laksha griha conspiracy. Though Karna's name appears once, he doesn't seem to be a part of it. When all other persons - Drona, Bheeshma, Kripa, Gandhaari etc, though not as a part of planning - are repeatedly mentioned many times in Laksha griha episodes & Karna is missing which is clearly suspicious.
Harsh words to elders because they deserved it. Being an elder does not give someone the right to insult a younger one for no reasons. Being an elder does not mean that person must be always right. So when accused / insulted for no reasons, whoever does that, deserves tit for tat replies. In case of Karna, Bheeshma's arguments/aarops were pointless. So were the others & he normally reacted to that. That is no mistake.
About DS, I am tired writing.
And the ghosha yatra, that was only when Duryodhana threatened him of doing suicide. Dury wanted to attack & kill Ps, but it was Karna who suggested a wealth showing parade. I think Dury's idea was better. This dukh bhari kahaani would have ended there itself.
At the end of the day, Dury, by no mean did nothing bad to Karna. So why would he not support him? And Karna had no business in what Dury wanted to do & what not wanted to do. As long as there is nothing which proves Karna supported Dury in whatever he did, except in Ghosha yatra, it is better we think he was either opposite to that or he was a neutral type person.

i agree with u😊