Tired of debating? Have a break... have a Chit Chat - Page 32

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return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
Genie, my defense of Taylor Swift was constructed poorly and I did have to mull over/research some points. So here it is again, if you still have the patience.
This is the public view timeline of events
1. Kanye West drops his song "Famous"
2. People are shocked at his lyrics
3. Kanye claims Taylor approved the lyrics
4. Taylor denies approving the lyrics
5. Kim calls Taylor a liar, alluding to proof
6. Taylor says there is no proof
7. Kim releases her snapchat videos of the recording
8. Social media celebrates end of Taylor Swift
9. Taylor continues to deny and accuses Kim and Kanye of defamation

Here is my point

If there was an hour long conversation that was recorded that Taylor Swift knew about she would not have committed the mistake of denying approval. That is a purely dumb rookie mistake to lie when you know there is proof.

That is why I believe Taylor Swift was unaware of the recording, which makes the recording unethical (maybe illegal). I also contend that it is plausible that she gave approval for two lines of the song, but later regretted it finding the whole song distasteful. I am willing to accept that Kanye West also did act on good faith assuming he had approval, but misunderstood the scope of the approval.

Coming to the issue of name dropping and references in songs.

As long as a person is not named it is all kosher. There are so many songs alluding to people. It is all speculation at that point. All the accusations against Taylor Swift are baseless because she never uses names in songs. The only songs she uses names are Tim McGraw (an ode to him) and Ronan (a tribute to a fan who died of cancer).

However, if you name a person you have to either get permission or it has to be a clearly fictionalized account. No one cares about positive accounts, but negative accounts can be sued. Eminem was actually sued by his mother. It was settled out of court, but he would have lost the suit. As for his song about his wife, it was a fictionalized narration of him murdering his wife and purely about his mental perceptions.

Kanye need not have gotten permission from Taylor, but it would have been in his best interest to do so if he planned to drop the name. Like Eminem's mom Taylor has every right to take objection over her name being used. Of course the matter is more complicated due to the phone conversation. Since the entire song was not played a court is most likely to settle on Taylor's side as there was no "full" disclosure on Kanye's part. Taylor is in a place where she can sue and take Kimye to the cleaners. However, she personally will not do so. Although, I think her record labels and those financially vested in her still have a solid case against Kimye if they choose to do so. This will boil down to music industry politics and record label rivalry.

Too bad it isn't like India where individuals sue willy nilly for stars they love. But I would totally sue Kimye if I had the time, money and patience.




charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
Umm, Hadey, Hadey..you are looking at the victim and defaulter when it's not about winning or losing but PR narrative control. Probably why these celebs sell so much and make a fool of everyone.

Taylor has been documented as saying she had no idea about the song. No idea at all. She has given ivs, went on record to say that. Her attorneys after Kim in her GQ iv mentioned about having proof , thats when the Taylor's attorneys got into the action and went into specifics and she issued a statement saying , "they did talk about it". Narrative shifted.


It's no rookie mistake.She just never assumed Kimmy Kay will leak, you are forgetting her attorneys did send Kanye a legal notice to burn the tapes way before Kimmy even told us about the proofs. So I wonder, why will Taylor's lawyers tell west to burn the tapes.
West was ridiculed , called out names and he was sliding down.
Their camp held to the evidence because game plan and they wanted to release it when Kardashians' new season comes out-Ratings.

Taylor never thought anyone could out-play her at her own game. She got caught-off guard.


Again, the genre of rapping is different. There has been blatant name dropping by almost every rapper. Eminem had a line , " Christina gave it to Fred" in his song..Britney and many more. Boys n Sync..and I am just talking about Eminem. Diddy, Jay Z , Tupac..it's their art. Salman stands on Big Boss stadium and name drops people from Farida aunty to SRk to whoever.


Umm no it has nothing to do with record labels and rivalries . Taylor's record label is same as Kanye's (stremming partner). Yeah and also the Bosses will enjoy their artists getting the buzz.

Taylor will never sue not because she is hurt or she feels offended but because this is about PR . I think you don't understand the PR mechanism of these stars. If she sues, she has a weaker case and most importantly Kim K will milk it for all it's worth on her show and we will get reality tv , live narration of this dynamics.

The moment Taylor chose to make a statement against West on Grammys, she was part of the narration and like she herself said , she has benefited alot from it too. Taylor wants this to end for now,, she will either write a song or wait for an opportunity to put them down.

The problem is who gets to control PR narration of this saga, thats the battle.

West won't care if you sue him..it's never about that , you are just giving him billings and more street creed. He did the right thing which none of the rappers do.

Taylor heard the line about "them having sex" and yet was all about promoting it at the red carpet..umm doesn't sound like someone who took umbrage to the song or even the general context

Ever wondered why her attorneys are not demanding the entire call to be outed..because because..they don't want it either.

PR is very fascinating..again I say, at their level , you don't have -right or wrong. Just who gets to shout more, wins.

Ever notice why Khans are in business, because their rivalry is a PR trick too, keeps all 3 of them in the news and in hype. Yeah, PR.
Edited by charminggenie - 9 years ago
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
I hate this new colour . It's awful . 😵
return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
The legal notice to burn tapes seems to be tabloid articles. I have not seen any mainstream media legitimately confirm that. Also if Kimye really want to bury Taylor that is their ace to play.
I just buy it. If there is evidence, it is ridiculously stupid and risky to ask for it to be destroyed, burned and turned over. Especially in an era of "LEAKS". That would be PR rookie move not PR pro move.

If she approved the song in its entirety and there was even a hint of taped evidence she could have spun it like

"Yeah, I gave Kanye the full approval because I was trying to bury the hatchet. I wanted to be a bigger person and set our differences aside. I may have gone a bit overboard trying to play cool. I was very nervous. I'm not a fan of the lyrics. It does bother me every day. I am really sorry it hurt my fans. But what's done is done. I'll give more thought to what I approve next time"

Boom. No denial + sympathy + victim card all rolled in one.

I genuinely think this is a case where Taylor gave approval to a part and not the whole and is upset that the whole was different from the part.

All PR games considered. What you are describing sounds just plain dumb. Or maybe I am too dumb for these so called PR games. Just can't buy it at all. Makes no sense.




1093604 thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago

Originally posted by: charminggenie

You guys are having way too much fun trolling me. 🤔😆



@Heisenberg - Because refugees are let in not out of compassion but because of political compulsions , war treaties and economic leverages.They are often used as political currency to assert power in a particular region, negotiate economic deals etc. A right wing can sit in the opposition and oppose refugees but put the same man in charge of the political power, he would do the same thing probably with a different tone. Europe or any other country want it's share of benefits. The key problem usually is agreeing on the number of refugee intake , not turning them down.



What benefit can a country derive from accepting a mass influx of people in such a short time frame from countries with regressive cultures and rampant misorgyny, who have no desire to assimilate and integrate, in a country that is antithetical to everything they believe in. The benefits should not be outweighed by the negatives. That is simpy shooting yourself in the foot.

Germany is reeling from the disastrous effects of taking in over a million refugees since last year. Effects which will reverberate for decades to come. Crime has shot through the roof across the board, sexual molestation/assaults of girls occur on daily basis with impunity. In some swimming pools across the country they've had to segregrate men and women after migrant men sexually assaulted girls.

Self-preservation and maintaining house in order should be priority high up in the list. Merkel has screwed Germany over with her refugee policy, the German's who've been pro-refugees till around the mass sexual assault that took place on New Years Eve, have now become disillusioned.

Sorry to be so blunt, but where ever there is a significant Muslim minority in a country, that country has problems.

Obviously, I don't mean all of them, #NotAll, but Europe should not be stupid, help out but don't have an open door policy. We already have ghettos, segregrated comminities all across Europe, Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe, and most of the rapes are not committed by white Swedes.
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
@Hadey- Kim K on her show mentioned West was send notices to burn the tapes. Did we hear a denial from Taylor's side about it , or her attorneys' refusing it. Never happened. Her attorneys are pretty good in issuing statements..they are not asking Kim K to play the entitre tapes but to burn them
You ask mainstream media..they were analysing Taylor even before the leaks , here you go.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/weekend-australian-magazine/how-taylor-swift-pop-queen-keeps-her-critics-in-line/news-story/d89c1fdeec64c2cbe538825da9110db3

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/Magazine/Features/article1666826.ece

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2016/07/18/taylor-swifts-carefully-cultivated-image-is-starting-to-crack/



Do you want to know how Angie turned around her image using PR..google NYT's story about that.

Or Guardian's take on Taylor's image control

^^Legitimate news for you about her image control.


Why did Taylor then denied to ever have heard of the song or even the knowledge of it? Wonder why. Please check her ivs around the Grammys.

Why should he make her listen to the entire song? Was it about her? Naah, there was a shout out to Ray too and other celebs.
How did Taylor agree to promote a song with a lyrics where she is suppose to be having sex with West on the red carpet. She had no problem with the "famous line too".- her attorney

Anyway, for me it's beyond naive to actually deny the image mechanism when every narrative sold to us public is a well thought-out plan.

Oh btw , everyone knows even Taylor records everything, she has a video cameraman 24/7 all the time , he is even IDed by your legitimate mainstream papers too. West is known to have cameras around, his wife too (reality show).

In the times of leaks or not, Taylor's team and she , mis-read Wests , she never thought they will leak it or she won\t deny.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2016/07/18/taylor-swift-legal-letter-kanye-west-destroy-recording-phone-call/

^^ TMZ claims to have the a copy of the notices Taylor send to the Wests to destroy the tapes..if you think this is just gossip and useless, even though TMZ is pretty big..I sure thin Taylor would sue them. I would enjoy that one especially considerin the recent Gawker case.

LOL at her not running with a victim narrative..what was her reaction to the song..the Grammy speech..ah , not victim card at all

Angie turned her image from husband snatching nonsense to saint of this world?

Salman's R Shetty.. but we would still deny how celebs use PR, image control to manipulate fans .

Taylor's empowerment is in her ability to control her narrative, she has suffered a setback, but no harm done..it's that we need to applaud. We are fools who take sides and give them the hype when all they want is to be talked about .


charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago

Originally posted by: Heisenberg17.



What benefit can a country derive from accepting a mass influx of people in such a short time frame from countries with regressive cultures and rampant misorgyny, who have no desire to assimilate and integrate, in a country that is antithetical to everything they believe in. The benefits should not be outweighed by the negatives. That is simpy shooting yourself in the foot.

Germany is reeling from the disastrous effects of taking in over a million refugees since last year. Effects which will reverberate for decades to come. Crime has shot through the roof across the board, sexual molestation/assaults of girls occur on daily basis with impunity. In some swimming pools across the country they've had to segregrate men and women after migrant men sexually assaulted girls.

Self-preservation and maintaining house in order should be priority high up in the list. Merkel has screwed Germany over with her refugee policy, the German's who've been pro-refugees till around the mass sexual assault that took place on New Years Eve, have now become disillusioned.

Sorry to be so blunt, but where ever there is a significant Muslim minority in a country, that country has problems.

Obviously, I don't mean all of them, #NotAll, but Europe should not be stupid, help out but don't have an open door policy. We already have ghettos, segregrated comminities all across Europe, Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe, and most of the rapes are not committed by white Swedes.


Why do you think Turkey was meddling here..why do you think West chose to poke around in Syria , Middle East and not say Africa or why not help out Yemen? Because these wars benefit them too- economically , strategically and politically.

http://www.irinnews.org/report/101624/benefits-hosting-refugees

^^ See how Lebanon and Jordon economically benefits from refugees . If this doesn't help then the study for the World Bank by the Refugee Studies Centre in Oxford, Guidelines for Assessing the Impacts and Costs of Forced Displacement' showed how nations actually benefit in terms of aids, trade and especially commodities like oil trade etc because of refugee crisis. It's a fascinating study how the benefits are 4times more than the cost. Lebanon , Turkey have taken refugees majorly and this is what a report says- Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development that shows these countries have all experienced economic growth in the past two years. Their economies are expected to continue growing mainly due to their favorable refugee immigration policies. Turkey's economy, for instance, is expected to grow by four percent in 2016.

Politically - the countries get to negotiate better trade deals , say with S Arabia and others. It also has more influence in an oil rich region . Germany gets be the Top Dog managing countries like Turkey and others at and leverage their votes for various UN related things. Check the trade votes for EU , UN and who voted for Germany.

Challenges like you said, are more socially and in assimilating especially now more so given the iSIS presence. We have angry mobs of refugees but we also have the case of girl filing a fake rape case against the refugees . You cannot filter but you need to slow down the number .


Merkel did what any German leader would have .


Do I support the influx of refugees , no..not in these numbers because it makes assimilating tough and social harm for both refugees and natives but do I deny them- cannot , atleast for now..till war stops.



souro thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
Sometimes I don't get Genie's logic. 🤔
1093604 thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago

Originally posted by: charminggenie


Why do you think Turkey was meddling here..why do you think West chose to poke around in Syria , Middle East and not say Africa or why not help out Yemen? Because these wars benefit them too- economically , strategically and politically.

http://www.irinnews.org/report/101624/benefits-hosting-refugees

^^ See how Lebanon and Jordon economically benefits from refugees . If this doesn't help then the study for the World Bank by the Refugee Studies Centre in Oxford, Guidelines for Assessing the Impacts and Costs of Forced Displacement' showed how nations actually benefit in terms of aids, trade and especially commodities like oil trade etc because of refugee crisis. It's a fascinating study how the benefits are 4times more than the cost. Lebanon , Turkey have taken refugees majorly and this is what a report says- Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development that shows these countries have all experienced economic growth in the past two years. Their economies are expected to continue growing mainly due to their favorable refugee immigration policies. Turkey's economy, for instance, is expected to grow by four percent in 2016.

Politically - the countries get to negotiate better trade deals , say with S Arabia and others. It also has more influence in an oil rich region . Germany gets be the Top Dog managing countries like Turkey and others at and leverage their votes for various UN related things. Check the trade votes for EU , UN and who voted for Germany.

Challenges like you said, are more socially and in assimilating especially now more so given the iSIS presence. We have angry mobs of refugees but we also have the case of girl filing a fake rape case against the refugees . You cannot filter but you need to slow down the number .


Merkel did what any German leader would have .


Do I support the influx of refugees , no..not in these numbers because it makes assimilating tough and social harm for both refugees and natives but do I deny them- cannot , atleast for now..till war stops.



All of these benefits are rather abstract as oppose to the real ground problems that society has to deal with mass uncontrolled immigration, upsurge in crimes, terrorism, ghettoisation etc. Fact is, as we can see throughout Europe, where there is a significant Muslim minority, they have failed to assimilate, instead creating enclaves and hostility to host nations.

I agree that Europe should take in genuine refugees, but what Germany has done is suicidal, simply not worth whatever economic benefits they may receive, and they'll be suffering social unrest for a long time.

On this front, I agree with the Hungarians, originally I didn't, but they recognise the problems that mass immigration will bring, and they're taking a tough stance against it.
hindu4lyf thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
This is awful. The alarming rate of such attacks..these scenes are becoming all too familiar across Europe now.

Hope I'm wrong but feels like just a matter of time before something of this sort happens in London.

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