PM sending chaddar Ajmer Sharif - Page 9

Originally posted by: 9tanki

@red-this is the most bogus thing i hve read about india🤢

Clearly, people know nothing about history and are just fishing for links to tell US about OUR land and people! 😆

Read the second volume of History of Sikhs by Khushwant Singh. You will know about relations between Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims both pre and post Partition. 😊

And that my friend, is just a bird's eye view. There are even more detailed books and records on it which you can find in the reference of that book itself.

No one knows better than the Sikhs on what it means to be a minority and how minority suffers.

They went ahead with the Constitution without a Sikh ever ratifying it. There was extreme struggle to even get own state and rights to manage own Gurudwaras.

Many learned and educated leaders, intellectuals and activists were peacefully campaigning for Sikh rights and protested against Article 25 that clubbed Sikhs under Hindus.

But the extremist movement ruined it.

Operation Blue star is the WORST attack on any community in history of Independent India.

Worse was the government's attempts to muzzle the actual accounts for which even India Today and many newspapers, human rights orgs criticised it.

Many innocent men, women, children were killed in most brutal ways and gurudwara was badly defiled. Guru Granth Sahib was defiled. It is not just a book for Sikhs. It is our Guru. But people just went ahead firing.

Then assassination of Indira Gandhi further wrecked it for Sikhs. Everywhere they started getting called traitors, they had to leave houses.

The killings in Delhi were no joke. It is not usual mob mentality. Many so called leaders took to streets. They knew Sikh localities beforehand and killed many men, gangraped women, killed children.

Burning alive, forcibly cutting hair, raping and all other forms of torture happened.

Many times innocent people like even ageing women were made to sign fake confession papers of being with terrorists etc. In Punjab itself, things like rapes, arbitrarily arresting anyone, communal riots, burning fields, killing even babies etc was on.

The people were thoroughly terrorised.

It exacerbated further as extremists also used to create trouble. Killing, taking shelter by force etc they did it all.

Everyone was terrorised.

A person was always in trouble. If he criticised extremists, they would kill him. If he criticised army, they wpuld arrest him on charges of sedition!

My family has lived through it all. Be it 1947 or 1984 and the post 1984 era.

So I know better than ones giving me links on my own community!

The integration you talk of, is due to sake of survival. Just see how in this thread, a guy conveniently labelled me fanatic, questioned if I was Indian or called teaching of our Guru as Khalistani!

People just got fed up. They would rather work silently or reduce religion and practices to mere rituals than get branded. They often didn't tell things to children or asked them to keep quiet even if they knew experiences. Having been displaced and relocated twice due to Partition and Punjab problem in those times, they just didn't want any more trouble. And anyone who spoke on this would either be looked at with suspicion or dismissed from job or killed, then why wouldn't they go silent?

You know? People even got scared to go to gurudwaras after that time?

Rest of the things were just part of amends by government after Sikh community, national media, many human rights groups and even the NHRC itself slammed it.

This is why I said, I know what this "integrated nicely" means.

Has there been any justice for victims of those years and any action on human rights violations?

Also, it is true that Hindus were also killed, but nobody ever labelled them in any way the way even normal Sikhs were labelled as extremists or traitors.
This is what I mean when I talk of majority and minority being judged differently. A minority is more likely to be generalised and labelled than the majority. Also, it is common sense that when such things happen, it is the minority that gets more damaged because it is already small in number and its number reduces even further.

Sikhs used to face lot of discrimination in jobs during and post that era. Almost as if they were not being preferred.

It is only in late 90s that things began to change.

Though till date there is lot of security whenever big celebrations take place at historic gurudwaras like Anandpur Sahib and Darbar Sahib.

Finally, Guru Gobind Singh ji gave teachings. These are not fanatical or Khalistani. Cutting hair, idol worship etc is forbidden in Sikh religion. Those who do it are not true Sikhs. You call them, but the Guru's teachings don't.

And following one's own religion and practices, preserving own history, heritage etc is NOT fanaticism. It is our right. We and our Gurus originated here. We are not immigrants or foreigners. So why should we be labelled fanatics if we practice our faith? Why should we be asked to amalgamate?

Giving example of foreign countries to people of own country is disgusting.

In my opinion, minorities should have every right to practise their religion, preserve history, identity, heritage without any pressure or interference. Trying to meddle with their matters and rewriting their history is not done. It is a human rights violation.

Yes you can give them a choice, give them suggestions. But ultimately you must leave them to do their own thing without being judged.

Only gross practices should be criticised. For eg, if there is tradition of say, euthanasia or honour killing then of course State should take a step. Otherwise you have no right to talk about their marriages, kids, dress, appearance, rites, rituals or mess with their history. That's unfair.

I AM NOT ASHAMED OF BEING AN INDIAN. I have always protested against Anti India posts and even made threads in suggestions forums to put more Indian content here, counter India bashing etc. Infact the 3 warnings I received from mods was only due to the criticism of their inaction on racist posts.

You can see the Suggestions forum.

But yes if there is a problem then I will definitely talk about it. Just as if there is a problem in my home, I will not hesitate to discuss it.

Minorities do live in certain fear and they are the ones who fear communal clashes the most. They fear being judged. They often bear things in silence. Just don't share with anyone including family.

You think minorities are entitled but that's just not true.

In my opinion, solution is to let every community do its own thing and not discriminate on any basis. If a person is good then hire him or her, give him or her that admission. No discrimination, even subtle one should happen on basis of caste, creed, gender, state, region etc.

Whenever any communal tension ensues the government should be tactical in its approach than take action in lax ways or letting things happen. And justice must be given to all. Everyone who commits a crime must be punished no matter what community he or she belongs to.

Don't ask anyone to simply forget. And kindly don't use insensitive words like "big tree falls".

The dirty politics played was shown very well in Nayak. Why let people kill, or riot?

Whether it is 2002 or 1984, a Hindu or Sikh or Muslim - all deserve justice. That's it.

Plus merely appointing person of a community alone is not enough. Dummy or nominal heads or puppet leaders are not what anyone needs. Thanks but no thanks.

If they want us to believe that having a woman, Dalit, Sikh, Muslim, or NE person on high post means there is no discrimination at all and everything's fine, then it's a joke. People need real action than tokenisms.

For eg having a woman CM in Delhi didn't make any difference. Sheila Dixit's comments on Nirbhaya case and action on protestors was insensitive.

What's happening today is that we supposedly have representatives of all but all are busy filling own coffers or enjoying own position than actually do something for people they represent.

The aam aadmi gets on with work or simply resigns to fate.

I am not anti India. Nor a fanatic. Neither "Khalistani" (stop throwing around such words so casually please!).

But the fact is that condition of minorities is just surface level "good".

And please do not name Saudi because this is India. Saudi types are not our ideal to measure against. Neither is US because many minorities in India originated in India itself. We are not immigrants.

Finally, I feel everyone should respect each other's limits and faiths. It is not at all right to force beliefs on others or mock them or judge if they celebrate or don't celebrate certain festivals. And if one celebrates certain festival as a friendly gesture or out of fascination then it doesn't mean you judge that community as a sect or part of other community.

That's all.

PS - Regarding Sikhs, read volume 2 of Khushwant Singh's book "A history of Sikhs". You will get a better idea. And yeah, don't judge communities and regions merely by outside experience or reports. And don't mock and belittle their own experience. One who lives there, doesn't need links on own region. It's common sense.

@AafatKiGoli

Only the ones who have seen it all know what is bogus or not.

In this thread itself the proof was enough given the kind of words some members used for me. This thread taught me why you're asked to remain silent if you're a minority.

It's alright. It is anyway a norm to call experience of minorites as mere claims or lies or bogus. Not new for us. Chalta hai.

One who hasn't even lived here or is not even a part of this community is waxing eloquent and is fishing for links! The things he or she needs to find links for, we have on our fingertips because that's our own real life and experience!

Pardon me but it was rather amusing to know that a person doesn't know that Punjab doesn't have its own unique capital and High Court and has to share it with Haryana. And gave me links for that! 😆

Regarding "my claims", again repeating, refer to A History of Sikhs by Khushwant Singh (Volume 2). I will suggest more books if you and anyone else here likes and thinks my and my community's experiences are not real or are just lies or claims. (And no they are not written by any "Khalistani" lest anyone mocks beforehand. )

I do not understand how the same people who mock outsiders for talking about India without having lived here, mock a person talking, who has lived at a place and are themselves talking without actually knowing anything or without having lived there!

There's no dearth of books and reports "banned", mysteriously becoming unavailable or hidden by government to give facade of peace and no dearth of interference with history textbooks as well as media reports.

PM sending chaddar -

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum

😆 this is sounding like something from the "we need to get to the root cause of terrorism". school of thought. In case you did not know, its also variously known as the parvez musharaff school of thought, an idea whose time came and went just as quickly, an idea which has been roundly and soundly discredited.😆. Please dont make us go through that particular BS of an idea again.

isnt it also so convenient that anything good that happened for Punjab eg the green revolution, was nothing one should be thankful for. But everything bad is, even the drug menace and NRI-bride problem that punjabis in general and sikhs in particular brought on themselves? Even in case of green revolution, there were other good options for how the money could have been spent at the federal level. As a punjabi myself, of course i know how industrious and hard working the clan is, but you got to be kidding if you think that the state had nothing to be thankful for...

on the contrary, i think india focuses too much on appeasing minorities and on respecting different faiths. There's a holiday for almost every festival imaginable!😆

and govt justifies killing/ torturing people by branding them as anti-nationals. Come on, dont just go around making random statements. if you have specific instances, bring it up, but dont make absurd statements if you cant back it up.😆

and of course India has problems. Who doesn't? The naxal problem is a class warfare one... So what of it? Even out west, half the crowd hated george bush, and half the crowd hates obama now. people are f**ked up that way, what to do?😆

Originally posted by: atominis

No one knows better than the Sikhs on what it means to be a minority and how minority suffers.
They went ahead with the Constitution without a Sikh ever ratifying it.

Many innocent men, women, children were killed in most brutal ways and gurudwara was badly defiled. Guru Granth Sahib was defiled. It is not just a book for Sikhs. It is our Guru. But people just went ahead firing. The killings in Delhi were no joke. It is not usual mob mentality. Many so called leaders took to streets. They knew Sikh localities beforehand and killed many men, gangraped women, killed children. Burning alive, forcibly cutting hair, raping and all other forms of torture happened. Many times innocent people like even ageing women were made to sign fake confession papers of being with terrorists etc. In Punjab itself, things like rapes, arbitrarily arresting anyone, communal riots, burning fields, killing even babies etc was on.

The people were thoroughly terrorised. It exacerbated further as extremists also used to create trouble. Killing, taking shelter by force etc they did it all. Everyone was terrorised. A person was always in trouble. If he criticised extremists, they would kill him. If he criticised army, they wpuld arrest him on charges of sedition!

My family has lived through it all. Be it 1947 or 1984 and the post 1984 era. So I know better than ones giving me links on my own community! And anyone who spoke on this would either be looked at with suspicion or dismissed from job or killed, then why wouldn't they go silent?

You know? People even got scared to go to gurudwaras after that time?

You have no right to talk about their marriages, kids, dress, appearance, rites, rituals or mess with their history. That's unfair.

I AM NOT ASHAMED OF BEING AN INDIAN.

Minorities do live in certain fear and they are the ones who fear communal clashes the most. They fear being judged. They often bear things in silence. Just don't share with anyone including family. If they want us to believe that having a woman, Dalit, Sikh, Muslim, or NE person on high post means there is no discrimination at all and everything's fine, then it's a joke. People need real action than tokenisms.

I am not anti India. Nor a fanatic. Neither "Khalistani" (stop throwing around such words so casually please!).

Why do Sikhs blame Operation Blue Star when they didn't stop Bhindranwale from making the Golden Temple his base and stash huge amounts of arms and ammunition inside it? Firing by Indian Army on Golden temple is sacrilege, but armed militants staying in the Golden Temple and killing security personnels is not? Why not blame the then Sikh community first for supporting Bhindranwale and his separatist movement.

@souro i will answer all your questions.

and i forgot to mention one thing.. wasn't it IG and the congress party who propped up bhindranwale in the first place? so if IG is not blamed for creating bhindrawale then why are sikhs blamed for supporting him?

I do blame Indira Gandhi for propping up Bhindranwale, but that doesn't make Bhindranwale right. And it doesn't make Operation Blue Star wrong either. When I say Operation Blue Star is not wrong, I mean flushing out the militants was not wrong, the other things that you claim, the burning of books, looting of gold, etc. are wrong if true, but that was not what the operation was about to begin with. Moreover, how much of these tales are true and how much is exaggeration is something up for debate.