PM sending chaddar Ajmer Sharif - Page 2

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Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#11

Originally posted by: Druids

There is a problem when the Indian Muslims forget the history of their forefathers and how they converted due to torture.



Not entirely true. We mostly think of conversion through torture because several important leaders like Guru Tej Bahadur were apparently tortured for not accepting Islam. First of all there are many conflicting accounts of the events. For instance the story of Prithviraj defeating Ghauri 17 times or heroically killing him in a duel after being tortured and blinded for not accepting Islam is most probably a myth.

For the general population there were mixed reasons for conversion. Some converted for higher position or a safer lively hood. Many others converted to free themselves of the yoke of caste that their native religion had imposed upon them for millenniums. Often in the course of history the downtrodden and oppressed classes have seen foreign invaders as liberators and not as tyrants. They don't share the exact passion for their indigenous religion or nationalism because their indigenous cultures and beliefs have never served them well. Why do you expect them to be outraged at the destruction of the temples - the same temples that were symbols of their misery? The same temples that denied them entry? The same temples whose wells supposedly got contaminated if their shadows fell on them? If anything they would be glad that these temples were razed and their oppressors had been unseated from their position.

The upper-castes or privileged sections see advent of foreigners as an assault on their religion, nation and traditions and norms, but for the traditionally oppressed pariahs the same situation is an opportunity for freedom.

Likewise, the British did not see dalits with the same disgust as a Brahmin or a Kshatriya would. Even the most racist British man would perhaps hate all Indians equally. And that is precisely why the dalit leaders were not quite enthusiastic about British withdrawal in the same way upper caste Hindus were. The same was the position of many intellectuals and social reformers who believed that immediate withdrawal of the British would throw India into a cultural abyss. They could count upon British sense of fair play but not upon that of ruling class Hindus in an independent India. You see, the world is not divided between patriots and traitors. Its much more complex than that.


The British East India Company was a private company and no, the owner was not the British Queen. But do our history books ever tell us this simple fact?


Yes they do. Its a well known fact that British east India company was a consortium of capitalists that obtained permission from various kings to set up their factories in India. The British queen assumed the title of the Empress of India only after 1857 revolt.
Edited by Rehanism - 10 years ago
990853 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#12

Originally posted by: atominis

Some posts here are disturbing.

What do you mean by "reconstructing" Hindu temples?

You want people to change their beiiefs? Label everyone as a convert?

It is not right to avenge past in the present.

Sorry but this thread seems communal.

Its debate mansion, if you want to debate on the topic you are more then welcome and don't term it as communal. Its off topic but whats your view on illegal occupant ?

If I had a house, and if someone comes and break it down and rebuild a mall used by 1000 people, does it make it legal because people are now using it. Does history changes the ownership of the land ?
990853 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#13

Originally posted by: Druids

There is a problem when the Indian Muslims forget the history of their forefathers and how they converted due to torture.

It's not a question of secularism for me. We had asked the govt to bring back Prithviraj Chauhan's grave from Afghanistan where the visitors kick it with a shoe.

Instead we get this. As an Indian, my heart burns at this not because of appeasing anyone but because this "saint" was responsible for India becoming a slave first to the Muslims and then the owner of the British East India Company.

The British East India Company was a private company and no, the owner was not the British Queen. But do our history books ever tell us this simple fact?

Yeah I saw the picture of Prithviraj Chauhan grave after you posted about it. How can they disrespect someone who is dead.


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Posted: 10 years ago
#14

Originally posted by: Rehanism



Likewise, the British did not see dalits with the same disgust as a Brahmin or a Kshatriya would. Even the most racist British man would perhaps hate all Indians equally. And that is precisely why the dalit leaders were not quite enthusiastic about British withdrawal in the same way upper caste Hindus were. The same was the position of many intellectuals and social reformers who believed that immediate withdrawal of the British would throw India into a cultural abyss. They could count upon British sense of fair play but not upon that of ruling class Hindus in an independent India. You see, the world is not divided between patriots and traitors. Its much more complex than that.



in a similar way, i think Jinnah and his muslim league stoked fears that a hindu majority india would slaughter the muslims, which is why the muslims needed a separate country. As 67 years of independence has shown us, other than the random rioting that has always been part and parcel of the subcontinent, nothing as dire as what they predicted has happened, has it?

as an aside, i think it's worth pointing out that for the longest time now, caste is just a convenient label for different economic groupings- thats how you have lower caste yadavs, upper caste yadavs, toilet cleaning dalits etc... There is nothing religious there. Contrast that with the sunni/ shia divide in islam or the different christian denominations. The split there is very strong and often takes a virulent form. Also, to the extent the converted hindus did well economically, more power to them. But i suspect that most have been worse off, both in india and in pakistan- for the simple reason that they became more steeped in ways that dont provide the education needed to do well in the modern economy...
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Posted: 10 years ago
#15

Originally posted by: Rehanism



For instance the story of Prithviraj defeating Ghauri 17 times or heroically killing him in a duel after being tortured and blinded for not accepting Islam is most probably a myth.

For the general population there were mixed reasons for conversion. Some converted for higher position or a safer lively hood. Many others converted to free themselves of the yoke of caste that their native religion had imposed upon them for millenniums. Often in the course of history the downtrodden and oppressed classes have seen foreign invaders as liberators and not as tyrants. They don't share the exact passion for their indigenous religion or nationalism because their indigenous cultures and beliefs have never served them well. Why do you expect them to be outraged at the destruction of the temples - the same temples that were symbols of their misery? The same temples that denied them entry? The same temples whose wells supposedly got contaminated if their shadows fell on them? If anything they would be glad that these temples were razed and their oppressors had been unseated from their position.

The upper-castes or privileged sections see advent of foreigners as an assault on their religion, nation and traditions and norms, but for the traditionally oppressed pariahs the same situation is an opportunity for freedom.

Likewise, the British did not see dalits with the same disgust as a Brahmin or a Kshatriya would. Even the most racist British man would perhaps hate all Indians equally. And that is precisely why the dalit leaders were not quite enthusiastic about British withdrawal in the same way upper caste Hindus were. The same was the position of many intellectuals and social reformers who believed that immediate withdrawal of the British would throw India into a cultural abyss. They could count upon British sense of fair play but not upon that of ruling class Hindus in an independent India. You see, the world is not divided between patriots and traitors. Its much more complex than that.

Is it just myth that hot rod were used to blind Prithviraj Chauhan ? Do you have a doubt how mughal use to torture, look what ISIS and Al qaeda are doing now. Nothing has changed, what Mughal did it in past, ISIS is continuing in the present.

In India your saying upper caste were not giving equal status to lower caste so they happy converted is that what you mean ? How about other countries look at Iran, now 99% are now muslim. Torture, harassment and destruction that were the main thing that mughal relied upon for conversion.

For Mohammed Ghor and Ghazni are respected in Pakistan and even named missiles after them. For them muslims even traitor are respected as long as they spread their religion.
Edited by 9tanki - 10 years ago
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#16

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum


in a similar way, i think Jinnah and his muslim league stoked fears that a hindu majority india would slaughter the muslims, which is why the muslims needed a separate country. As 67 years of independence has shown us, other than the random rioting that has always been part and parcel of the subcontinent, nothing as dire as what they predicted has happened, has it?


I don't find Jinnah's and Muslim intellectual's fears to be irrational or their intentions purely malicious. I don't think Jinnah was delusional enough to believe that Muslims will be wiped out in Hindu India. What he feared was that they'll remain a backward and ghettoized community led by the clergy and their patrons. Note, Congress did not manage to win over the progressive Muslims; instead it drew its support from the most orthodox section of the community who had been impressed by Gandhi's support for Khilafat. Whereas liberals and secularists like Jinnah were inspired by Mustafa Kemal's secular Turkey and remained on the fringe, their voices stifled first by the fiery nationalist roars of Tilak and then by the populist appeal of Gandhi.

Jinnah has been demonized in India to justify our nationalism and equally morphed into a pan-Islamist in Pakistan to justify their nationalism. In this the real progressive, secularist and constitutionalist Jinnah is all but forgotten. But that is a topic unto itself. Personally I see partition as an idea whose day had come. However had it been done in an organized manner, it would have been much more bloodless and less ignominious. Ideally India and Pakistan should have been granted full independence at least 2 years after the implementation of the Partition plan. But the British were in a hurry to leave and wanted no part in the mess any longer.


Edited by Rehanism - 10 years ago
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Posted: 10 years ago
#17

Originally posted by: Bitch.hunter

Yeah, very communal to talk about reconstructing holiest places in Hindu history. Let's just stop the nonsense.

Let's all be secular

Let them build the mosque on Ram's birth place

Instead build a ram temple at meccah

And shift golden temple at Vatican and reconstruct golden temple as a church.

The one and only solution for peaceful existance. What say?!

Its communal to talk about the facts because it hurts the religious sentiment. If Azim Premji comes to RSS rally, its communal and next day it becomes national headline. and if Modi sends chaddar to Ajmer sharif its becomes appeasement act or fake for the minority.


Secularism in India means "keep quiet", and lets not change history because it can lead to riots.
642126 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#18
I used the word communal, specifically after seeing lines on Indian Muslims being all converts.

That is not quite done. How do you know every one was converted?

Will you favour demolishing other religion's buildings now to construct temples?

Also, how do I believe this version of history in the OP is exactly true?

There's no dearth of organisations set out to rewrite own version of history.

I don't agree Hindu majority has suffered any problems due to secularism. The condition of minorities is evident. Whether it is UPA or BJP, how much anybody bothered about minorities for real, is known.

These actions like sending chaadar are just tokenism.

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Posted: 10 years ago
#19

Originally posted by: atominis

I used the word communal, specifically after seeing lines on Indian Muslims being all converts.

That is not quite done. How do you know every one was converted?

Will you favour demolishing other religion's buildings now to construct temples?

Also, how do I believe this version of history in the OP is exactly true?

There's no dearth of organisations set out to rewrite own version of history.

I don't agree Hindu majority has suffered any problems due to secularism. The condition of minorities is evident. Whether it is UPA or BJP, how much anybody bothered about minorities for real, is known.

These actions like sending chaadar are just tokenism.


hmmm, actually one can show that almost every one was converted. It's another thing it's not very PC saying that. You see, there are just 3 ways for muslims to exist in india-

1. starting with the original adam and eve muslims in india, multiply like crazy;
2. be descendants of the mughals;
3. be converts;

if you work through 1. and 2., you will find that they will explain only a small fraction of the muslim population in India. So unless you believe they got airdropped as manna from heaven, they are mostly converts. In fact, some paki friends acknowledge the same- in their case, Aurangzeb did it to them.😆

as for condition of minorities in India, it is not for lack of bothering. A Hindu majority India has bent over backwards appeasing the minorities, far more than any other country would do for its own minorities- the US put away red indians in tribbal reservations, the middle east dont even allow minorities to practice, in pakistan minorities are persecuted and are dwindling in numbers, in afghanistan they blow up bamiyan statues.

in fact a lot of the muslims in India are better off than they would be even in Pakistan- the Wadias, the Khan actors, the Premjis...If the rest seem to be stewing in poverty, it is because of the education and the way of life they choose. No one forced it upon them.

But ask yourself. Would you employ someone in your modern economy if they go around with dirty unshaven beards, spend all day getting religious education in a madrassa, chew and spit paan and discolor their teeth all day... I mean can u see these people get employed in the IT industry, or in the US or anywhere? These guys normally change their entire taur-tareekas in the US!!! But no, they will not change in India- others should in fact accommodate them. Compound that with the fact that they do not exercise birth control and you have a vicious cycle of poverty.. So those are the reasons, since you brought it up. Not good whining and blaming it on a Hindu-majority India. The lack of gratitude is also common, but in reality no one can do more for the minorities...


Edited by BirdieNumNum - 10 years ago
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Posted: 10 years ago
#20

Originally posted by: atominis


Will you favour demolishing other religion's buildings now to construct temples?

Yes, especially if that religious building was built by destroying a temple.

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