PM sending chaddar Ajmer Sharif - Page 3

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souro thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#21

Originally posted by: Rehanism


Whereas liberals and secularists like Jinnah were inspired by Mustafa Kemal's secular Turkey and remained on the fringe,

Can you please establish that with facts? What makes you say that he was secular and what he did for the security of followers of other religions in Muslim majority areas? Please also elaborate on what role did Muslim League and Jinnah play in getting independence from the British that he should have been given more prominence as the main leader? While you're on this subject, can you also shed some light on Direct Action Day and what Muslim League did to people of other religion in the only province that was entrusted under their governance? Maybe Hindus should also show Direct Action Day kind of secularism for you to tag their leaders to be liberal and secular. 😆
Edited by souro - 10 years ago
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Posted: 10 years ago
#22

Originally posted by: atominis

I used the word communal, specifically after seeing lines on Indian Muslims being all converts.

That is not quite done. How do you know every one was converted?

Will you favour demolishing other religion's buildings now to construct temples?

Also, how do I believe this version of history in the OP is exactly true?

There's no dearth of organisations set out to rewrite own version of history.

I don't agree Hindu majority has suffered any problems due to secularism. The condition of minorities is evident. Whether it is UPA or BJP, how much anybody bothered about minorities for real, is known.

These actions like sending chaadar are just tokenism.

Damn if you do, damn if you don't, thats the plight of the government.

Do you want to rewrite history just because you don't believe it. Do you have doubt on action of so called peace loving nature of Mughals or Arab invaders then read some article on how islam was spread through force and conversion and the cruelty done by them. You can check any ISIS video and see what mughals might have done in the past.

If something is illegal whether its house, mall or religious place, it needs to come down. Just because a religious place is constructed on someone else property doesnt give them right to own the place.

If the condition of minority are not good in India. Its no one but they need to blame themselves

Population trends for major religious groups in India (1951-2011)
Religious
group
Population
% 1951
Population
% 1961
Population
% 1971
Population
% 1981
Population
% 1991
Population
% 2001
Population
% 2011
Hinduism84.1%83.45%82.73%82.30%81.53%80.46%78.35%
Islam9.8%10.69%11.21%11.75%12.61%13.43%14.88%
Christianity2%2.44%2.60%2.44%2.32%2.34%2.5%
Sikhism1.79%1.79%1.89%1.92%1.94%1.87%1.89%
Buddhism0.74%0.74%0.70%0.70%0.77%0.77%0.77%
Jainism0.46%0.46%0.48%0.47%0.40%0.41%0.40%
Zoroastrianism0.13%0.09%0.09%0.09%0.08%0.06%0.05%
Ethnic faiths, others0.43%0.43%0.41%0.42%0.44%0.72%0.75%

Since partition followers of Islam have increased by 50%, if parents have 8-10 children from 2-3 wives financially that family will be weak.

Jobs needs degree and experience, just gaining education from madrasa doesnt give high pay jobs.

If the population of a community is 14%, then 2 children in every class should be muslim in school and colleges, but thats not the case.

Its not just India, most muslim country are not doing well because of their own stubbornness. Look at Pakistan they have majority muslim what has it achieved, do they have any TCS or Infosys ?

I will tell you incident that I witnessed last week. I was flying from LA to Boston, and there was a man with long beard without mustache in our flight and white lady was sitting next to him, she refused to fly along with him. That man was sitting alone during the 6 hour flight.

To live in global community one needs to change and adapt the culture. You don't see hindu wearing dhoti or kurta into office because people might be uncomfortable seeing them in such dresses.


Edited by 9tanki - 10 years ago
souro thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#23

Originally posted by: 9tanki

I will tell you incident that I witnessed last week. I was flying from LA to Boston, and there was a man with long beard without mustache in our flight and white lady was sitting next to him, she refused to fly along with him. That man was sitting alone during the 6 hour flight.

As much as I don't like that look (only beard, no moustache), I don't agree with what the lady did. He is a fare paying passenger, hasn't harmed her, it's not right to insult him that way for just having the same style of facial hair as the more radical followers of his religion. I will say that the man was much more of a gentleman to not insult her in some way even when provoked, than the woman was a lady.
642126 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#24
Azim Premji or Khans doing well do not mean all minorities are doing well and have no issues.
India's secularism is tokenism. Merely symbolic.

Why did Bollywood actors have to change names in past? Sikhs like Sampooran Singh Gulzar and Jagjit Singh, Karkirtan Kaur became clean shaven, cut hair, Gulzar, Jagjit Singh and Geeta Bali. Muslim actors Dilip Kumar, Madhubala, Meena Kumari all had to change names.
Why they needed to have Hindu sounding names and looks?

There was no India. No "one unified country" till British rule. Often communities were at war with each other themselves. Religions, languages, dialects, sects, castes, sub castes etc kept evolving.

People of all religions have lived together here. Friendly relations and battles - both happened.

Even during freedom struggle there was no one unified struggle. All were fighting own battles, own way.

Of course now certain organisations and community want to rewrite history and behave as if there was one India that was invaded by others or Indians together fought against them.

How can you ascertain which Muslim's forefather was forcibly converted? And who accepted Islam voluntarily? Who knows who liked this religion and its teachings and himself decided to adopt it?

Why does it hurt which way of life people adopt?

Even Ashoka took to Buddhism later.

And you are trying to call Islam "foreign" here. Why is it that "Indians" were not able to or did not resist these foreigners?

Rana Sanga himself invited Babur to invade India to deal with Delhi Sultanate. Is he a traitor then?
Why did he even have any connection with Babur at all?

Why did Hindu kings give away their daughters to Muslim emperors in marriage? Became their vassals themselves?

Why they often took their help to defeat or crush their rivals?

It is simple. There was no one whole country. Only personal kingdom or territory mattered. Own kingdom itself was own country. And as long as that was safe or could be expanded, till then nothing else mattered.

Every single state of India has different faiths, language, dialects, history, cultural practices, dresses, food etc.

Muslims are among the poorest minorities in India.

Amusing how artists, craftsmen, rulers, saints, poets, writers, that India was once proud of and still tries to flaunt at times, were Muslims but some here are disparaging their community.

Talking of appearance, there are many bhaiyas also with unkempt appearances, filthy language, teeth stained through chewing paan and tobacco.

What's your problem with dress and appearance? People have right to keep their unique identity! Will you call out Sikhs also for their beards and turbans?

All media, academia, top posts, cinema etc are majority dominated. Regional languages almost facing extinction. And Hindi being foisted everywhere. Most National awards, schemes, plans, defense equipment is given Hindu names.

Where is majority having any problems? Or minority getting something "more"?

Why will Muslims and other minorities not prefer a school related to own faith? Schools and textbooks don't have anything about them. On top of it they make one recite prayers of a specific religion which might not be theirs. Why will they feel comfortable?

Has there been any effort to help them improve conditons of own schools?

Media and cinema blatantly stereotype other communities. Even this belief is spread that Hindi is national language.

Those who are behind large scale massacre of minorities become Prime Minister by landslide margin here.

Butchers and murderers roaming free. Obviously "no evidence found" against them!

Forget "foreign" communities, even the ones that originated here have not been spared from persecution and attempts to take them under fold of one majority community.

Even so called PMs and Presidents from minority communities were mere symbolic heads. At best golden zeroes.

Being minority has become a crime.





Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#25

Originally posted by: souro

Can you please establish that with facts? What makes you say that he was secular and what he did for the security of followers of other religions in Muslim majority areas? Please also elaborate on what role did Muslim League and Jinnah play in getting independence from the British that he should have been given more prominence as the main leader? While you're on this subject, can you also shed some light on Direct Action Day and what Muslim League did to people of other religion in the only province that was entrusted under their governance? Maybe Hindus should also show Direct Action Day kind of secularism for you to tag their leaders to be liberal and secular. 😆


Jinnah was certainly a secularist. He looked up to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk as his inspiration and role model. He was a more consummate heir to Gokhale than Gandhi was. He was one of those who criticized Gandhi for infusing religion into politics. He was opposed to the restoration of theocracy in Turkey that Gandhi and Congress lend its support to and subsequently withdrew from the party and politics when he found there was no one to hear him. Also he was a constitutionalist who believed in legal methods to achieve reforms within the society. He wasn't an aggressive/populist nationalist leader who wanted to overthrow the British at any cost. Like many older Congress leaders he believed that outright expulsion of British will lead to a reign of anarchy and feudalism and therefore the Congress should strive towards progressive reforms and greater representation of Indians in decision making. Any genuine historian who understands the real meaning of secularism would confirm the above. Besides if you look into his personal life, Islam had least influence on him. Most of his life he wore western clothes, spoke and wrote in English, drank wine and ate pork. There is little evidence to support that he wanted a mullah governed Islamic state. In fact several of his statements say otherwise. The only times he invoked Islam or the Prophet in his speeches were for mostly positive references to 'equality of all men' and 'importance of taking women together' etc.

Now I do not believe he was flawless or he didn't miscalculate. His two greatest blunders were his inability to measure the consequence of his Direct Action speech and later on his refusal to grant autonomy to the East Bengalis. Direct Action day was supposed to be a day of boycott of the new Congress government but it was Surhawardy whose highhandedness led to the massacre in Bengal, not Jinnah per se. His second blunder was much more cumulative and would bear its bitter fruits 2 decades later. He saw only two nations in India while in reality there were many nations - each with its own identity, history, language and culture. Fear of a common enemy (real or manufactured) does create a temporary bond between diverse communities, but once that fear is subsidized the bonds too fall apart and much more long standing differences resurface. Jinnah's inability to understand this was his greatest failure.

Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#26
Its important for Indians to understand the proper definition of the words 'Secular', 'Secularist' and 'Communal'. These are perhaps the most abused words in India. A person is secular if he's non-religious or is mostly uninfluenced by religion or superstitions. Questions like 'Was Jinnah secular?' 'Is Modi secular?' etc are meaningless. Jinnah or Modi or any other individual is not required to be secular. They are perfectly entitled to have beliefs in their personal capacity. Its the state and its organs that's required to be secular.

Secularism is the belief of seperation of state and religion and its proponent is a secularist. Communal is a person who prioritizes the interest of one particular community among others. I don't think there is any real conflict between being a secularist and a communal leader/worker. IMO Ambedkar was a secularist and he was also a Dalit communal leader. For most part of his life he strived for the interest and representation of one community. If someone believes that a certain community is genuinely disadvantaged wrt others its perfectly legitimate for them to focus on that community. eg. If someone works for the rights of women or LGBT community it doesn't automatically makes that person anti-men or an enemy of other gender.

642126 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#27
First of all it is Guru Tegh Bahadur. Not Jeth Bahadur.
What will you talk of when you can't even name anyone correctly?

You focus on Guru Tegh Bahadur but forgot that it was Hindu Brahmin named Gangu who let out details of Guru Gobind Singh's younger sons and mother's hideout and encouraged Aurangzeb to kill them. You want to conveniently ignore that land for Golden Temple was granted by Mughal emperor. And Hazrat Mian Mir was invited to foundation laying ceremony for Golden Temple.
Guru Gobind Singh's army also had Afghan Muslims in it. Infact 2 Muslims had helped save his life.

When was it only Islam vs everyone else? Only in history of divisive forces perhaps!

All Muslims were never against Sikhs. Neither were all Hindus siding with Sikhs.

History is not black and white no matter what likes of you say.

Today also Hindus are at it.

Took even Sai Baba who never claimed to be from any specific religion. Made temples, installed statues and cooked up lore around fasting and even made up mantras like Om Sai Ram.

Of course claiming Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists as Hindus and denying them their original identity, is another propaganda.

These days BJP leaders even say anyone who lives in India is a Hindu.

Secular India. Only in name.

Even rationalists get murdered or have crude bombs thrown at them.

Hypocrites are desperately wanting foreign investment but suddenly start speaking against "foreign" things as they please.

Really oppressed majority. 😭
642126 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#28
Ha!
I am not a Muslim. I have never seen a madrassa.

In fact Muslims are barely in mainstream. In most areas except a few, they kind of got sidelined and live in ghettos.

The comments reek of bigotry.

Anyone who does not believe your version of history is either anti national or a Muslim.

There were evolving communities. It was never clear cut us vs them.

BTW what is the meaning of "correcting history"? You mean revisionism for Hindu Rashtra?

Tokenism can never hide reality. Having a Dalit BR Ambedkar does not mean conditions of Dalits are not bad. Having women PM, Prez, Speaker doesn't mean there are no issues of oppression of women.
Neither does one Mary Kom imply that North east has no problems.


Edited by atominis - 10 years ago
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Posted: 10 years ago
#29

Originally posted by: atominis


----

Why will Muslims and other minorities not prefer a school related to own faith? Schools and textbooks don't have anything about them. On top of it they make one recite prayers of a specific religion which might not be theirs. Why will they feel comfortable?

---


your entire post is filled with inaccuracies, falsehoods and spin, more than one can be bothered to deal with. So dont mind if i just address one small part of it, the part i extracted above.

yes, why should the minorities bend? Why should they go to school if a different prayer is invoked?

that's the difference. Some of us, even coming from the majority segment, did go to Christian missionary schools where Bible was taught, where we learned the Lord's Prayer before anything else. We embraced it. We did not resent it. Try that openness for a change and maybe, just maybe, the minorities can also do well.

by the way, do minorities also insist on such accommodation in the US? Most likely not. They know they'd get their ass whipped if they did. And you talk of India not being secular. Tell us about other countries that do more for their minorities than India does, and maybe we will understand where you are coming from. Otherwise, it sounds like whining and lack of gratitude, asking, always demanding accommodation from others, the same accommodation that would never be extended to others in reciprocity. .
Edited by BirdieNumNum - 10 years ago
souro thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#30

Originally posted by: atominis


Hypocrites are desperately wanting foreign investment but suddenly start speaking against "foreign" things as they please.

I've heard this several times from several members, don't know why people don't get a simple fact that India is not begging for something and neither are the foreign firms going to do India a favour by investing here. India shows them advantages of investing in India and they are convinced of those advantages and only then they agree to invest, not because they sympathise with India and want to do it a favour. If investing in another country instead of India can give them higher profits, they will do it in a heartbeat. Just because we want to encourage foreign companies to invest here, doesn't mean we need to blindly copy everything from foreign countries.

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