Documentary Nirbhaya India's Daughter - UPDATE Admins reply pg29 - Page 60

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_Angie_ thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: souro

I don't know if he actually believes in what he is saying, so can't speak for him. But one has to consider that he is fighting a case and fighting to win it, so he will go to any length to get a favourable outcome for his client.


What a way to try and win his case! Being a legal professional he did something illegal by promoting an illegal practice such as honour killing. He even dragged his daughters into the controversy by saying he'd kill them if they did something similar. Not sure how that helped his case. And airing all that rot before an international audience !!??? How the heck was that supposed to help his client? It can only mean that he seriously believed all that he said to think it would win sympathy or justification for the vile deeds of his clients.
return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

There are two issues here. One is the damage his crass remarks would cause to the psyche of the gullible. Another is the damage it would do to the image of the country.


What about the gullible when politicians and other influential people make similar crass remarks?

Don't you think the damage is done by the rape statistics? By politicians and law enforcement officials who play the victim blaming game? This documentary is just a nail in the coffin.

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

contrite criminal might give a little closure to the victim's survivors. That is not what happened here. He made it worse.


Closure is very personal and subjective. Some people actually find closure in forgiveness, while even considering forgiveness is repulsive to many. Some people find closure in brutal revenge, while inflicting physical harm is repulsive to many.

I think some victims maybe horrified at letting the rapist speak. I think some victims found closure that the dirty little secret of attitudes towards women is exposed.

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

In your stance, the impact that you talk about could be negative or positive. We can't shoulder the risk of the negative. The kind of mass introspection that you are talking about is almost quixotic. Are you sure your audience is ready for that?


The most lasting and powerful lessons are when we question and correct ourselves.

I guess you are right about questioning the ability of an entire nation being able to do that successfully.
souro thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I don't expect a rapist to be repentant or apologetic. When he justifies his crimes based on excuses like "women should not be out at night" and "she should not be with non family men" , I want it to impact people. I want all the people who give such advice or express such views to feel sick, repulsed and shocked that their views align with those of rapists. I want them to reflect if holding such views encourages rape.

I have read this quite a few times during the course of this debate, that people who say women should not wear short skirt, not go out late at night, etc. are thinking like a rapist, but I have a problem with people expressing such thoughts being equated to the reasoning of the rapist. There is a big difference between the two - those people are saying such things because they don't want women to be raped and the rapist is trying to justify his own crime. The first group believes that short skirts, late night parties, roaming around with boyfriend can attract rapists or make a girl vulnerable to rape. That doesn't mean they want the girl to be raped. Those who say that if a girl wears short skirt, she deserves to be raped, they you can say think like rapists. But those who say, avoid these things, it attracts rapists, they are not thinking like rapists, they just believe that they know what attracts rapists, how being raped can be avoided and trying to advise according to their knowledge. I'm not saying that they should be allowed to say that, of course they shouldn't be allowed to say such things, those are irresponsible remarks as it helps create a perception in minds of gullible people that if a girl wears short skirt then it indeed helped attract the rapist, which actually gives the rapist a chance to defend his actions. However, it is unfair to equate those people with rapists, instead the constructive thing to do is to educate people that nothing causes rape, it is a rapist who causes rape.

There were also comments criticising those who ask girls not to fight back when raped. These comments should be seen in context. Most people think that escaping alive is more important than fighting and ending up dead. When a girl has been completely overpowered and the rapist is armed and can kill her, then fighting back can indeed endanger her life. It's the same reason why people advise not to fight back when being mugged, because getting out of it alive is seen as more important. At the end of it, it's the girl's choice what she wants to do in such a situation, and I certainly can't judge which is correct. Fighting back or not fighting back won't lessen the importance of the crime, however it can at times make a difference between her remaining alive or not. Having said that, I absolutely disagree with statements like the one made by Asaram Bapu, that if you're being raped, chanting Gayatri mantra, calling your rapists as brother and pleading for mercy will stop them from raping you. That's giving false hope to people, something that has no chance of happening.
K.Universe. thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades



What about the gullible when politicians and other influential people make similar crass remarks?

The ones who may not have read / heard those statements might know now thanks to a compiled documentary. A compilation connects the dots, organizes the thought processes and gives the viewer time to contemplate. That contemplation can go in two different directions. I was saying that we can't take the risk of it going in a negative way.

Don't you think the damage is done by the rape statistics?

Stats are impersonal. Putting a face to the stats makes it personal driving home the message of the one in front of the camera. Sans a clear message, with only the rapist's words and the lawyers words to hang on to, the unsophisticated are left to make a decision on their own. That can be dangerous.

I think some victims found closure that the dirty little secret of attitudes towards women is exposed.

May be a completely neutral audience who have no empathy. I would think that anything short of a prostration by the criminal would only aggravate the heartburn of the victim's near and dear.

The most lasting and powerful lessons are when we question and correct ourselves.

True but the ones capable of questioning themselves don't need a crime of this magnitude to do that. More importantly, we cannot take the risk of a few repugnant remarks to cause unknown damage, just so there exists a chance that some people might ruminate on what's been said.



Just to reiterate, these are all opinions and there's no clear cut right or wrong in what we are saying.

642126 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: _Angie_

The issue is not the documentary or its banning or not banning. The real issue is that there are too many people who hold similar views to the rapists and their defense lawyers. That gives a sense of justification to these criminals. It is alarming that they feel absolutely no remorse nor any fear after such a brutal murder.



THIS.

Many who want it banned also say this case got too much attention and blame Nirbhaya and her parents for being irresponsible.

Point is people don't shift responsibility on the rapist. The burden is still on victim.

Blaming dress or timing is useless because even minors have been raped that too in broad daylight.

High time instead of making excuses, take the issue head on.

return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
@Souro

I think it should be pretty shocking to have some thought process parallels with a criminal. One may not condone rape or crime, but if some views are aligned it should give pause for alarm. A person may say certain statements as "safety advice" and not as a "belief". The problem is the rapist mindset uses such statements as justification.


Certain statements that define how a woman should think, act, dress, behave are extremely dangerous in society. They are part of "rape culture" and should be avoided. I understand many people make such statements out of good intentions, which is why awareness of how we innocently propagate rape culture is important.


Advice on how to react to rape should be taken in context. Some people do advice not to fight out of concern for life and safety. Although, there are many benefits to fighting.

- Certain rapists are deterred by screaming and fighting and prefer "easier prey"

- Clawing at rapists, biting or pulling their hair can actually help collect valuable DNA evidence

- Fighting also leads to use of restraint and bruising which is evidence to rape

- Defense lawyers often use lack of resistance as an excuse to claim that the sex was consensual (this is a flimsy defense because some victims have a freeze' response and some victims actually can orgasm during rape. Even if it doesn't hold legal water, it often extremely flusters victims on stand)


Not fighting makes sense only if the rapist is extremely violent and it is safer to offer less resistance; or in circumstances where you feel they might kill to dispose if you resist too much. It is a very very tricky situation, but fighting usually is a more reasonable bet.


In the end fight or flight response is very natural and hardwired. There is no right or wrong way to react to rape trauma. Whether you freeze, give in or fight, the fault is always with the rapist not the victim.

-Nafisa- thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Southall Gurdwara opens its doors for public screening of India's Daughter

INDIA'S DAUGHTER, a TV documentary based on the rape and brutal murder of a 23-year-old in Delhi in 2012, sent shockwaves around the world when given its first airing last week.

Sikh educational charity Everythings 13 came together with Gurdwara Sri Guru Singh Sabha Southall, the busiest Sikh Gurdwara in Europe, to put on a public viewing of the documentary, followed by guest speakers and an open Q&A session.

Speakers included political journalist and the author of India Dishonoured, Sunny Hundal, and female rights campaigner Rani Bilkhu, founder of the charity Jeena International, alongside Sharanjit Kaur and Jagraj Singh of Everythings 13.

Around 200 people, including men and women of all ages, attended the viewing and openly discussed the implications of the crime, its impact on Sikhs in Britain and highlighted the taboo of the subject.

It was the first time a Sikh Gurdwara has opened its doors to showcase such a sensitive subject and the frank discussions were considered a big success.

Journalist Sunny Hundal said: "It was nice to see a big audience turn up to watch India's Daughter. Violence against women is very much a Sikh problem so it is good to see the issues discussed publicly in a Gurdwara".

With over 1.4 million Indians in Britain, the cultural issues that stigmatise women and are taboo subjects within the community have crossed boundaries and become apparent in the UK too.

Jeena International, a UK-based female empowerment group, has found that women from Britain regularly travel to India for gender selective abortion, while anti-domestic violence group Southall Black Sisters says British-Asian women are twice as likely as white females to commit suicide in the UK.

Rani Bilkhu, Founder of Jeena International, says: "Tackling these issues needs to become a community agenda, so credit to Everythings 13 and the Southall Gurdwara committee for hosting such a night "

Shown on the BBC and banned by the Indian authorities, the programme was one of the hottest stories, trending highest on twitter for more than two days in Britain and India.

The documentary caused controversy by showing the callous attitude towards women held by one of the six who raped Ms Singh, and how many men in India, including members of the Indian judicial system, held this attitude.

"These issues are not just in India, they are on our own doorstep here in the UK too. We cannot hide away from dealing with them," said Sharanjit Kaur, of Everythings 13.

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/11847236.Southall_Gurdwara_opens_its_doors_for_public_screening_of_India_s_Daughter/

-Nafisa- thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

India's abandoned daughter


The message of the Indian state is clear from its response to the documentary India's Daughter. Rape is permissible and normal, but a film which is an insult to the nation state is taboo. When culture is under threat, the vulnerability of women, the obscenity and the banality of rape are inconsequential
Controversies have a way of fragmenting the narrative of stories. They also have a touch of scandal which generates not merely outrage but also an epidemic of political correctness. The recent ban of the BBC documentary, titled India's Daughter, on the Nirbhaya rape case, is an example. I sat and watched the documentary. It is powerful and compelling. What holds one's attention are the fragments of conversation from the convict and the quiet responses of the family. What is irrelevant or possibly elliptical to the movie is the commentary of the NGOs that spread out like politically correct icing. The reactions of Krishnan, Kanth, Seth, all sensitive people, are reasonable in themselves but they do not touch the core of the narrative.
The narrative
The story, presented in its rawness the rapist's narrative and its various thematic elements. Listening to the narrative, I was sickened by the sheer lack of humanity. I felt as if I did not want to be part of the human species. I was wondering where I had watched a similar display of responses and the sheer ordinariness of the comments reminded me of Hannah Arendt's study of Eichmann in Jerusalem, a controversial but classically relevant book.
Arendt's book talked of Eichmann, wondering how to make sense of the sheer ordinariness of the man and the enormity of his crimes. Eichmann claimed he was merely obeying orders; that he was an officer enacting his daily chores. He appeared "normal", or as one psychologist admitted "more normal than I was after interviewing him". The nature of the crime here is different. Adolf Eichmann committed genocide; our rapist killed and disembodied a woman, a paramedical student, removing her intestines as if it was a bit of garbage.
If Eichmann saw himself as a responsible bureaucrat following orders, our rapist saw himself as a pedagogue punishing deviants around the city. He sees himself as a moral policeman, as a surveillance mechanism tracking and punishing couples roaming "irresponsibly" around the city.
The rapist in this case becomes not a pathological case, but a symptom of the normalcy of our culture. In fact, it is the sickness of our culture that we witness through the words, the attitudes, and the body language of the perpetrator.
The rapist seems ordinary, dressed in a T-shirt and with the makings of a beard. He could be sending a rakhee message to his sisters, full of mild complaints rather than talking of the woman he raped. There is no remorse, no sense of loss; he sounds like a man who has had a meal and appears to be complaining about it. In fact it is the sheer normalcy, the patriarchal normalcy of the story that creates a link to Arendt's analysis. What one witnesses is the sheer absence of guilt, the banality of culture.
The narrative opens simply. Our friends have had food, also a bit of alcohol. They are now tempted to move across their personal Maslovian hierarchy to fun and sex. They decide to ride towards GB road, where such activities are reputed to take place. The picture is clear, these are ordinary men in ordinary pursuits, following predictable urges.
However, they are also folk sociologists theorising on modernity and the city. They reflect on the human condition and talk about the vagaries of the city. They express their sense of urban anxiety, about women walking the city at night, and hint at the seduction and temptation of women floating freely around. For these men, a freely moving woman is an act of licence.
Such a woman becomes classified as dirt. Dirt, as the anthropologist Mary Douglas defined it, is matter out of place. As dirt, the women threaten order and classification and order has to be restored. They have to be put in place. The liminality, the ambiguity, the threat of a woman violating male order is clear. As patriarchs and pedagogues, the men must teach the women their rightful place.
The rapist confesses. He wanted to teach the young couple a lesson and also cure the standard masculine itch. If it is collective itch, they resort to gang rape. He complains that the victim was not pliable; that if she had submitted passively, she would have been subject to less violence.
Cultures and responses
The two lawyers who play the chorus to the perpetrator systematise his responses. They play the contemporary Manu explaining why men were not to blame. A woman is not victim but a temptation. She is in fact responsible for rape, because she is the agency that triggers it. One lawyer in fact says that a woman in the right place is worshipped as a gem but a woman in the wrong place has to be punished. As the two lawyers articulate their defence of rape, one witnesses the logic of the culture at work. The argument is that men are not to blame. Their feelings are normal. It is the woman who as temptation has agency. Men are mere facts of biology. Women create the culture of threat and anxiety which triggers biology.
The documentary juxtaposes the response to rape across two cultures. One embodied in the radical stereotype of JNU and by young students and reveals the horror and the anger which boils over. Protest against rape becomes their initiation rite into politics. They feel their responses are genuine and are surprised by a patriarchal state which greets them with violence and water cannons. For these young students, rights is about freedom, about inventing a culture. For the rapists and the defence lawyers, culture is about control and surveillance. It is a male panopticon subjecting women to perpetual scrutiny; even the idea of the woman at home as an icon to be worshipped is sheer hypocrisy. One realises that domestic violence meets urban violence in the rape story. In exposing the hypocrisy and portraying the protest, the documentary creates a politics of hope.
State reaction
But the power of culture is the power of controlling memory. The state saw in the protest in Delhi a threat to its power, its alleged edifice of law and order.
When a foreign film-maker, especially from the BBC, makes a film, it suddenly feels that the culture of the nation state is threatened. The security and the reputation of the nation state is more important than justice. Security in fact is the new virginity of politics. The Indian nation state is doubly insulted. First, by media exposure that caused hurt to culture and second when the expos is conducted by outsiders. A ban is the standard reflex of a threatened culture.
The state is literally on red alert. What with jihad, moral policing, culture has been in a state of crisis. Minorities of all kinds, from students, women, Muslims have been threatening this sense of culture. The message is clear. Rape is permissible and normal, but a film which is an insult to the nation state is taboo. Enter the pious patriotism of Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh, who is both chowkidar and security expert of the threatened state and its vulnerable cultures. The film is banned and he adds that he plans to prevent its release in other countries. It is clear that when culture is under threat, the vulnerability of women, the obscenity and the banality of rape are inconsequential. Rape is after all an internal matter and the documentary would damage India's status in the outside world.
In politics especially famous for its well-intentioned googlies, the doosra also offers another reason for the ban. Some argue that the film should be banned because of the attention and focus on the rapists. Inadvertently, it might become a source of encouragement and publicity for them, bloating their egos, and validating their sense of machismo.
Luckily, what the state proposes, the Internet disposes and the film went viral. People watched it with a sense of eerie disgust. Yet, one realised that Mr. Rajnath Singh was shrewd. The documentary triggered unease, despair but no further protest at a mass level. The Letters to The Editor' did not give way to the battle of the streets. Between the cynicism of power and the banality of rape in our culture, one wonders about the fate of democracy. Between patriarchy which reduces gang rape to a collective hiccup and majoritarianism which is licking its imagined wounds, democracy, at least at the cultural level, feels empty. This is a disaster which the film talks about and which we as citizens have to respond to, today.

souro thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: .Verity.

Southall Gurdwara opens its doors for public screening of India's Daughter

They can release it in theatres all over the world if they want to, but how is that relevant to the current discussion?

642126 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
When girl does not fight back, they easily turn it against her and say it was consensual and there was no rape!

It is not a country issue. Many publications wrote about cases of similar nature in their countries too and shared statements on victim blaming from their people, while discussing this documentary. That is the right approach to this documentary. Spark discourse to take action. Introspect if we have similar attitudes that contribute to existence of rape, and change that mindset.

How it has been made, let people judge for themselves. In any case NDTV was not going to air it 24/7 all year round!




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