21st Century Religion

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373577

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Posted: 10 years ago

#21

Originally posted by: peaceseeker

The souls of a Rabbi, a Christian minister, and a Islamic cleric appeared at an area that was marked "The Gates of Heaven". They eyed each other suspiciously. Peter (the gatekeeper) asked if there is a problem

The Rabbi told Peter , "Ours is the true religion. We have the word of God that this is so and it is written in the Torah that God said we are the chosen children of God, not the Christians or the Muslims."

The Christian minister said, "Jesus told us that he is the Son of God and that the only way to God was by following his teachings and that unless one is born again, one would not get into heaven. What Jesus said is the word of God and it is written in the Holy Bible".

The Muslim cleric says, "Allah told Muhammad that he was the last true prophet and that everything that Allah told him was written in the Koran and that those who did not follow what was written there would not get into heaven".

Other souls appeared and some sided with and gathered around each of their leaders, while some other souls who sided with no one entered directly through the gates of heaven

Eventually Peter told the souls who had gathered around the souls of their clerics, "Listen, in heaven there can be no disagreement and until you all are in agreement, you have to move to the Purgatory area".

No agreement was reached and eventually the souls died (Hell) because souls who were not with God could not exist.

Point to be noted is that neither Jesus nor the prophet actually wrote the books. Are the credentials of the disciples equal to those of Jesus or the "last' prophet. It is impossible for any other person other than the experiencer to convey what exactly he means to. A lot can be lost in transcription, translation and even more in comprehension. To kill over it is nothing but insane. but perhaps it is forbidden to question anything

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373577

Suspended

Posted: 10 years ago

#22

Originally posted by: Summer3
Great replies guys.
😆

Please do not take me too seriously.

Sometimes there is no right answer because what is recommended for a person does not apply to all in general. One's meat is another poison they say.

No worries summerbhai. When gospel itself gets questioned what hope do mere mortals have in being taken seriously 😆

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Qirat.

@Qirat.

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Posted: 10 years ago

#23

Peaceseeker your post have been deleted, so I am going to answer you here.. My reply in red

While at least 114 verses speak of love or peace, sixty percent of the Qur'an deals in some fashion with jihad!

Jihad doesn't mean "holy war". The word "holy war" in Arabic is "Harb Muqaddasah" and this word doesn't exist in the Quran at all. The word jihad only means to "to strive" "to struggle". If you struggle for your exam, you are considered as doing Jihad, as simple as that..

Now coming to below verses? Why did you choose to ignore the Quran verse 9:1 - 9:4 & 9:6 till end?? Funny how you choose to take the below verses and quote it out of the context.. Who are you trying to fool??

Surah 9:5 says, "Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikn (those who join gods with God) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salt (prayers), and give Zakt (alms), then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." This seems to contradict the verse that speaks of no religious compulsion in Islam.

Quran 9:5 is talking about the war of Badr. It is during battlefield. It does not mean you go & kill all the Mushrikin. Read the first verse of this Sura. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriqs of Makkah to make amends. What the Qur'an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don't be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them [for self defense].

Quran 9:6 "If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."

Surah 4:89 tells Muslims to not take Christians, Jews, or pagans as friends, and also orders the murder of those who depart from Islam: "They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliy' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah. But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliy' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them."

Again event during battlefield / war. [Quran 4:88 What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.]

"Hypocrites" here are not referring to apostates, but they are clearly talking abt those who pretend to be Islam on the outside but are actually enemies of Islam. Such hypocrites are the ones who would aid the pagans against the Muslims. Then come the punishment for hypocrites in Quran 4:89

Then come this verse for those who ask for forgiveness.

Quran 4:90 [Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.]

Quran 4:89 rules are further explained in Quran 60:8 & Quran 60:9

I will explain the rest on the next post.

Edited by .chiquita. - 10 years ago

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Qirat.

@Qirat.

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Posted: 10 years ago

#24

Why do you quote the Quran from 9 to 8 to 9 back then to 4? Is that how you read a book? Chapter 9 to 8 then to 4? I can't even explain properly, jeez..

Surah 9:123 says, "O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who are the Al-Muttaqn (the pious)." The list goes on:

Quran 9:123 (badr war as mention in above) Here who are the disbelievers who are close to you?? Now you if choose to read the verses before 9:123, you can see who/what context is it talking about, but guess what, you are here in this forum where majority people prefer to spread lies & make up their own meaning of things they read. The very first mention is in the verse Quran 9:73, refers to those hypocrites who were doing great harm to the Islamic society by mixing up with the sincere Muslims.

"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do." 8:39

This verse was revealed when pagans had crossed all the limits and transgressed in oppressing,torturing and killing the Muslims. And if you go back to verse 8:34 where kuffar are warned to stop preventing Muslims from performing pilgrimage. The idea being that in al-Masjid al-Haram only God is to be worshipped [the idea being explicitly stated in verse 2:191 which sets the stage for verse 2:193, which is identical to verse 8:39.

And another thing, did you know that this verse of 8:39 starts from 8:38. The arabic word use at the beginning is "wa-" for 8:39 - 8:41

What is Fitnah??? You use the word Fitnah in your translation which says "disbelief and polytheism". Why not just quote from the Quran????

First Fitnah

[8.30] And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

Second Fitnah

[8.34] And what (excuse) have they that Allah should not chastise them while they hinder (men) from the Sacred Mosque and they are not (fit to be) guardians of it; its guardians are only those who guard (against evil), but most of them do not know.

Third Fitnah

[8.36] Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.

Edited by .chiquita. - 10 years ago

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Qirat.

@Qirat.

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Posted: 10 years ago

#25

"It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise." 8:67

"slaughter" doesn't mean kill in that sense. You have to know the Arabic meaning of this verse. The verse is saying that before making sure that you've won the war against your enemies do not think of taking captives.

This verse came down after the battle of Badr, when Prophet Muhammad consult his companions about what to do with the captives he got 2 responses, some said kill them and some said forgive them and take a ransom and he choose the second choice. The verse just criticizes the Muslims why they care about money

This might've jeopardized the victory of Islam in wars because they could've been so caught up with taking and holding captives that they lost sight of the big picture. Surprisingly, the same thing happened in the battle of "Ohod" where some soldiers were distracted by gathering the spoils of war and then the enemy grasped the opportunity and managed to carry out a viscous attack which resulted in martyrdom of many Muslims.

"Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah (tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." 9:29

Here we go again. As you notice from above, Chapter 9 is about war. This verse got revealed to the prophet (SAW) when it was a time of war between the Arab Pagans and the Muslims. And so Allah gave the Muslims permission to fight the pagans in self-defense. The translation should begin with "You shall fight BACK" as that is what it actually means in Arabic. Only attack if they attack you..

What is jizyah? It is an exemption tax which only non-Muslims payed for having their own laws and courts in Muslims lands. It was agreed in the treaties that non-Muslims would be left alone if they did not interfere in the state and paid their taxes. So it doesn't say they pay "tax for faith". Rather they pay tax for the protection and management of the state - not too different of why we pay taxes today, right?

So put your bigotry and prejudice behind you as your lack of education in the matter is the barrier to your understanding!

Edited by .chiquita. - 10 years ago

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peaceseeker

@peaceseeker

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Posted: 10 years ago

#26

Originally posted by: zorrro
When gospel itself gets questioned what hope do mere mortals have in being taken seriously 😆

The "Holy Books" (Bible, Torah, Qur'an) were written during a time when superstitions prevailed. Superstitions are an irrational belief that someone or something causes an action or circumstance not logically related to a course of events that influences its outcome. A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance; a fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality.

Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. The followers must unquestionably believe these Words of God or they will be condemned. If that is the case, apparently the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by and having heard the Word of God correctly.

These so-called Holy Books could be inspirational and could help us in our journey through life if one discounts all the references to the writers vivid imaginations of physical sightings or conversations with God, Satan, snakes, devils or angels.

Condemnations of those who do not believe what is written or question these so-called Holy Books and condemnation of any kind also should be eliminated. The Torah, Bible and the Koran need to be edited and brought into the 21st century where religion is not based on slavery to God.

Edited by peaceseeker - 10 years ago

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peaceseeker

@peaceseeker

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Posted: 10 years ago

#27

So put your bigotry and prejudice behind you as your lack of education in the matter is the barrier to your understanding! [/QUOTE]

I have several Muslim friends who secretly wish to see Islam be the over-control of all governments. MOST Muslims are peace loving...but many will not voice opposition to the radicals and terrorists because they believe that Islam can do a better job of running countries. Anyone can believe anything they wish...the problem is when a belief supports radicalism and terrorism...that is WRONG.

Muslim leaders have NOT done enough to condemn terrorism, many are still perpetuating it and many Muslim scholars still do NOT debunk their use of the Qur'an to wage a war in that manner...this must change and when the majority Muslim leaders therein voice their opinion, the world and the news will take notice.

I live in a free country that allows me to belittle any religion, the leader of any country and even Allah himself...this is my right. When this right is abridged, then it is a dictatorship or just plain stupidity. Muslim terrorists are a "shameless" insult on Muslims and Muslims have a duty to correct this. Do you realize that these terrorists kill more Muslims than others?

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Qirat.

@Qirat.

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Posted: 10 years ago

#28

Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. The followers must unquestionably believe these Words of God or they will be condemned.

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Peaceseeker, the Quran is word of god.

"Say: If the whole of Mankind and Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with

help and support." [Al-Qur'an 17:88]

"And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are

any) besides Allah if your (doubts) are true.

But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones - which is prepared for those who reject faith".

[Al-Qur'an 2:23-24]

Allah says if you doubt it then produce a verse like it.

>The grammar of the Quran is perfect without one mistake. If you know Arabic grammar, then you will know that it is 100 times more in depth and complicated than English

>Statistical miracles in the Quran http://www.islamawareness.net/Miq/stat.html

>Scientific miracles in the Quran http://www.onereason.org/islam-unveiled/why-islam/

>Then add that there is no contradiction between one statement and another from 114 chapters

>The rhyming melody of the qur'an is so perfect - that it can't be duplicated. It does not conform to any poetical order of Arabic or any other language. You can't call it poem nor prose. Quran is just Quran. Its lucid, lyrical and mellifluous style is not less than any miracle.

>Not ONE syllable is out of place in the perfect mathematical rhyming scheme

>No one have changed or altered the book - Then every statement is a statement of truth, along with that every single sentence is timeless, meaning it is true now

and will always be true

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Qirat.

@Qirat.

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Posted: 10 years ago

#29

Originally posted by: peaceseeker

I don't agree with terrorism. Terrorism have no religion. But you are saying that the Quran teaches violence & I was just refuting that only. It does not!

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peaceseeker

@peaceseeker

Beginner

Posted: 10 years ago

#30

Originally posted by: .chiquita.
Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. The followers must unquestionably believe these Words of God or they will be condemned.
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Peaceseeker, the Quran is word of god.

All Holy Books were written or dictated by fallible men whose spirit interacted with the spirit of God/Allah...BUT this was translated by their pre-conditioned minds, hence you have various religions...ALL claiming to be the TRUE religion.

NO MAN can accurately translate the wishes of God/Allah because it would be like a 5 year old child dictating the intellectuality of his father. God/Allah desires NOTHING from mankind. Your spirit will determine its own continuity. Live by the sword & you and your spirit will DIE.

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