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return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#51

The purpose of quit India movement was to get India independence from the British. India is a sovereign nation. That movement no longer makes sense.

The purpose of feminism was to gain women equity with men. There are still several instances of double standards and sexism. The movement is still necessary. Any social movement will evolve with time. Social evolution and multiple meanings is inevitable.

All movements have both passive and aggressive elements. For every Martin Luther King Jr, there is Malcolm X. For every Gandhi, there is a Bhagat Singh. Along with that there are thousands of ordinary people who fall within the spectrum. So yes there are passive feminists, militant feminists and ordinary every day feminists who subscribe to the spirit. You cannot judge an entire movement based on one fractional element.

There are extremist elements in all religions who commit crimes in the name of all religion. That doesn't mean people should stop identifying with the faith they were raised in.

You identify yourself with whatever means something to you, clarify what it means to you and protect it from those who seek to tarnish.

983175 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#52

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

The purpose of quit India movement was to get India independence from the British. India is a sovereign nation. That movement no longer makes sense.

The purpose of feminism was to gain women equity with men. There are still several instances of double standards and sexism. The movement is still necessary. Any social movement will evolve with time. Social evolution and multiple meanings is inevitable.

All movements have both passive and aggressive elements. For every Martin Luther King Jr, there is Malcolm X. For every Gandhi, there is a Bhagat Singh. Along with that there are thousands of ordinary people who fall within the spectrum. So yes there are passive feminists, militant feminists and ordinary every day feminists who subscribe to the spirit. You cannot judge an entire movement based on one fractional element.

There are extremist elements in all religions who commit crimes in the name of all religion. That doesn't mean people should stop identifying with the faith they were raised in.

You identify yourself with whatever means something to you, clarify what it means to you and protect it from those who seek to tarnish.


You forgot to add that under certain circumstances people do consider a change in faith..some choose different faiths..some decide to become an atheist altogether..and they have their own reasons for the same..

I believe feminism has evolved for the worst & I ll be doing an injustice to myself if I continued to label myself a 'feminist'.. it wouldn't be fair to me..I certainly am a supporter of "women's rights" & now in this case I am just that "a women's rights supporter".. feminism is now a dirty word as far as I am concerned..and I would be deeply offended if anybody called me a feminist..

Besides I am yet to hear the opinions of feminists on the issue in hand..I am tired of quoting & re-quoting the links ..if only I get a to the point answer without all this gyan on holy feminism , I would be grateful..

Edited by Quixotic5 - 10 years ago
983175 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#53

Ah, I suspected so..🤓
983175 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#54
Just re-quoting the edited post as i felt that the previous post did not make my intentions clear enough, hopefully this will do..😊

Originally posted by: Quixotic5



I have no idea what this topic was about..but it looks like it was about male rapes..and I think RTH has pretty much summed up the problem & i agree with everything except the following :


How can 'feminism' be the solution to this problem ?..😲 😲.. your suggested methods to deal with this problem are spot-on but terming it 'feminism' is counterproductive in my opinion..mainly bcoz victims of male rapes fear being stigmatized as weak sissy boys .a.k.a 'feminine' & if u approach them for helping them with something called 'feminism' they will run away bcoz the terminology is in itself messed up as it will off-handedly confirm victim's stereotypical feminine status.. why name it 'feminism' ?.. cant people come up with a gender-neutral term in this case ?.. if u really intend to help the victim here, you wouldnt have a problem with changing the name to something that is gender-neutral...besides, we have already had our share of debates on what feminism actually stands for in another thread "Feminism in India" ,so i am not looking forward to the same debate again.. my point here is , helping a male victim with 'feminism' is not helping..this help should be made independent of 'feminism' & should be based on 'gender-neutrality'.. only such an approach will help male victims to break away from the stereotypes & seek help, otherwise you ll push these victims further away since ur approach though anti-patriarchal , still is emasculating since u ll further strengthen the belief that the victims are sissy as they are taking a refuge under 'feminism'.. moreover, anti-patriarchal approach need not be feminine-inspired or emasculating , it can also be gender-neutral.. approaching a male victim to help with 'feminism' is further emasculating for the already emasculated male victim..so help the male victim with proper intentions & people can/should save the aggressive marketing of 'feminism' for some other time...


P.S ... I am not saying that 'feminine qualities' are 'weak qualities' ... I am just saying that just as females identify with their gender & take pride in being 'feminine' & get offended when someone calls them 'manly' , similarly , men too derive this sense of pride from their own gender identity & might feel less-of-a-man to take refuge under 'feminism'... similarly transgenders take pride in their own gender identity... technically speaking there is nothing wrong with that , its just human nature, we identify with who we are ..the fact that, overall 'feminine qualities' are considered 'weak' is a different matter altogether.. feminism may or may not be a solution to this problem , i am skeptical about feminism..i feel bringing in a notion of gender-neutrality-equality is the proper solution here..however, i dont think its very considerate to bring in the 'feminism' agenda while dealing with male rape victims..thats very very insensitive in my opinion..you can bring in a similar agenda to help the victims but make sure that the approach is not gender-biased & feminism IS gender biased..i feel that the notion of gender-neutrality should be encouraged to deal with this problem..and while the feminists can take liberty to claim that they stand for gender-equality , they certainly arent in a position to make similar claims when it comes to gender-neutrality..and i believe gender-neutrality is the key to 'gender equality' ..

QuietlyLoud thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#55

^^

Each word's origin can be traced to its initial use.Etymology of a word is not always its definition. Feminism started out as a movement aimed at females,hence the term.Idea and perception of the term changes as society evolves.Changing the words with changing ideas is not practical because then whole dictionary would need to be altered.Do you know the word salary originated from the Latin term for salt?Why,because in ancient Rome soldiers were paid salt instead of money.There was a time when the word salary made people think of salt.Now it doesn't make any sense. The same goes for feminism as a movement just oriented at women.Involvement of men and liberating them from the constraints of sexism and gender roles were always an integral part of feminism even in the past because it affects both genders equally,not just males.I read a statement in one of the threads here(dont remember where )"Most assaults on females could be avoided if men weren't asked to be men".That is so true.Even if some one consider feminism as a movement targeted just at females,involving men liberating them from gender stereotypes is an essential part of it because rapes,domestic violence and many other such assaults against women cannot be completely eradicated otherwise.

It's not just the women who are at the receiving end due to such sociocultural stereotypes imposed on men.Men and especially young boys are equally affected.A male rape victim's condition is worse than a female victim because thanks to gender stereotypes, along with the stigma associated with rapes,their identity is also at stake.It's even worse in some societies like middleeast where sex segregation is large. in Afghanistan,little boys are made to dress like girls and dance for adult men and then are sexually abused.There was a BBC documentary about the practice. It is also mentioned in the novel,the kite runner.Reading about it in the novel was bad enough.Knowing it still exists makes my gut wrench.Why they are being dressed like girls and stripped off their gender? Again the same old gender stereotypes.Afterwards these boys are left to mourn on their own because acting otherwise would put their identity at stake.When men embrace feminism, and work to built a society free of gender stereotypes they are making their lives better along with women' because it would mean male and female rape victims getting same treatment from the public and male rape victims not ridiculed for being less of a man.You don't have to approach a victim saying "I'm going to help you with feminism "The idea is important not the word.It is not gender biased because both genders are equally benefited in the end.

The role of men and terms like gender equality are not dropped from sky to old feminism and made it modern.It was always there but less discussed because during the time when notion originated,liberation of women from social and cultural restrictions were the need of the hour.At that time,scrapping of stereotypes imposed on women were of more importance than discussing the effect of male gender stereotypes.Now that women's conditions are somewhat improved, it is just getting popular.Thanks to Emma and her speech,people are getting familiar with this less discussed aspect.Many male celebrities are coming forward with their support for the he for she campaign,which is good.

In a nutshell 'movement aimed at females 'is the etymology of the term feminism,not its meaning.Feminism is only complete with the involvement of men.Men's involvement directly benefits women while it indirectly benefits themselves.


PS Excuse for the long post with boring details😆I'm not looking forward to another feminism debate any time soon,hence this single long detailed post.

Edited by QuietlyLoud - 10 years ago
983175 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#56

^^ All of the points mentioned have been repeatedly contradicted on this and other threads..still, just top sum up..

1. "Etymology of a word is not always its definition" - Except in this case ofcourse..

To quote Oxford,

"The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."

To quote wikipedia,

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women"

Now now, i know certain feminists claim that feminism has 'evolved' over the years but it is yet to be included in the dictionaries..so whatever extra nonsensical hogwash they stand for is just their own delusional perceptions & nothing more.. perceptions cant be validated..definitions certainly can be..

2. If you feel that it isnt "practical" to change the 'terminology', fine, i respect your opinion..in fact even i have stopped advocating the change since i realized that Feminism has indeed evolved for the worst.. there is indeed no scope for a change whatsoever.. feminists are beyond any rhyme or reason & nobody can talk sense into such people.. so its better to advocate gender-neutrality on its own grounds , separate from Feminism & in competition of Feminism.. i repeat, Feminsts can certainly take the liberty to claim that they stand for gender-equality ( though i am skeptical about it more than ever) but they certainly aren't in a position to make similar claims when it comes to gender-neutrality..and i believe gender-neutrality is the key to gender-equality..

3.And seriously what was that about Afghan children being stripped off of their gender & raped ?? ..i mean what was your point ?😕.. " not the name but approach is important" ?.. yeah the approach is important but by saying that 'the name' is 'not important' , i hope u aren't suggesting that the name stays as 'feminism' 🤢.. bcoz irrespective of the intention of feminists ( which is most likely sinister in this case ) the name will do the damage...and so , even if the approach is 'nameless' , it is absolutely prudent that it not be named 'feminism'..'gender-neutrality' is the right approach in this case NOT 'feminism' & i have already explained why..

4. I too was all for "He for She" until i realized that "She" in this case "Feminism" is a total nutcase..i still stand by "women's rights" bcoz I am an Equalist but NOT a Feminist.. and whenever i advocate 'women's rights' i ll make sure to clear out my intentions with the same..you know something like , "Just FYI i am not a sinister Feminist but only an Equalist "
983175 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#57
@ Anjali

Salt :

noun
  1. 1.
    a white crystalline substance which gives seawater its characteristic taste and is used for seasoning or preserving food.
    "season with salt and pepper"
    synonyms:sodium chloride; More
  2. 2.
    CHEMISTRY
    any chemical compound formed from the reaction of an acid with a base, with all or part of the hydrogen of the acid replaced by a metal or other cation.
adjective
  1. 1.
    impregnated with, treated with, or tasting of salt.
    "salt water"
    synonyms:salty, salted, saline, briny, brackish
    "salt water"
  2. 2.
    (of a plant) growing on the coast or in salt marshes.
    "the region is rich in salt plant communities and reed beds"
verb
  1. 1.
    season or preserve with salt.
    "cook the carrots in boiling salted water"
  2. 2.
    sprinkle (a road or path) with salt in order to melt snow or ice.
    "local authorities worked to improve travel conditions by gritting and salting roads

Salary :

salri/
noun
noun: salary; plural noun: salaries
  1. 1.
    a fixed regular payment, typically paid on a monthly basis but often expressed as an annual sum, made by an employer to an employee, especially a professional or white-collar worker.
    "he received a salary of 24,000"
    synonyms:pay, earnings, remuneration, fee(s), emolument(s), stipend,honorarium, hire, wages, wage, gross pay, payment, earned income;More
verb
archaic
verb: salary; 3rd person present: salaries; past tense: salaried; past participle:salaried; gerund or present participle: salarying
  1. 1.
    pay a salary to.
    "the Chinese system"salary the doctor and stop his pay when you get ill"
Origin
Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French salarie, from Latin salarium, originally denoting a Roman soldier's allowance to buy salt, from sal salt'.


So yes , the etymology of Salary evolved from the latin word Salt & the 'evolved meaning' is now down in the dictionary Unlike Feminism.. Feminism was & still is defined as -

To quote Oxford,

"The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."

To quote wikipedia,

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women"


Do you now see the difference between the etymology-definition of 'Salt-Salary' & 'Feminism' ?
Edited by Quixotic5 - 10 years ago
return_to_hades thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 10 years ago
#58
Why is feminism not just about women, but men too?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTvSfeCRxe8#t=557[/YOUTUBE]

How men are held back by patriarchy

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_MlHvif0tk[/YOUTUBE]

Because "boys are studs and women are s**ts" is the very reason why male rape victims are not taken seriously

http://www.upworthy.com/an-ex-cheerleader-allegedly-raped-a-15-year-old-boy-and-the-press-has-no-idea-how-to-talk-about-it?c=tpstream

[Read the twitter comments by MEN]

Why is feminism necessary to shape social perceptions of manhood

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeIDSzIAmjQ#t=96[/YOUTUBE]

Feminism is an organic social concept that cannot be narrowly defined by a dictionary or single monochromatic perception. Feminism means a lot to a broad slice of society. Why Joseph Gordon-Lewitt a feminist is puzzled about people against feminism, especially women and his hit record project to understand why people are feminists or not

http://www.hitrecord.org/collaborations/9530?page=1

Before I post further can we take a moment to relish beautiful beautiful irony. Let us appreciate the irony that I tried to curate examples of men speaking about feminism to see if the male perspective makes a difference. Let us appreciate the irony that we are engaged in a debate to prove that feminism is beneficial and necessary to society. Let us appreciate the irony that we are engaged in a debate to show why feminism can help male victims of patriarchy too. Let us appreciate the irony that we are trying to convince a male that his misgivings about feminism aren't actually true or accurate.

A female perspective, because it would be too ironic to not have a small dash of gender equality. How could you be a feminist without that?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJRFClybmk[/YOUTUBE]

Very proud to say I'm a feminist. Actually auditioned for next year's local production of Yoni Ki Baat, The South Asian version of vagina monologues.


983175 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
#59

^^ Perceptions cant be validated !.. everybody is free to have their own perceptions & live in their own lala land, be it Emma Watson or any of the people in the above mentioned videos...there are several videos on YouTube that discourage basic human rights in the name of Humanity,Religion & Science & at the same time, make it sound completely sane & rational.. i certainly am not going to take the pains to quote the videos for u..simply bcoz i think its absolutely unnecessary.. i think each of us have our own head to think through a situation & decide whats right & whats wrong.. i do have my own sense of justice and i will stand by it.. yes, 'my perceptions'.. but the matter of whose perceptions are closer to reality , is debatable ( & understandable) .. the debate in my opinion will be productive if it is carried out on logical grounds & not completely governed by exaggerated perceptions..

I still stand by "women's rights" & i will do everything in my power to get rid of the patriarchal mindset that affects both men & women.. Feminism is NOT the way to do it for OBVIOUS reasons.. i feel that after a certain point , the 'evolved feminism' is no different from patriarchy.. both are sinister & both place unreasonable expectations on both sexes..

I believe its about time that the 'evolved' Feminism should be thrown out & completely discarded while encouraging 'gender neutrality'.. i believe that its absolutely prudent that the 'evolved' nonsensical Feminism shouldnt be encouraged..i believe gender-neutrality is the key to gender-equality...

Very proud to say that i am an Equalist & NOT a Feminist ! .. Thank You ! 😊
Edited by Quixotic5 - 10 years ago
return_to_hades thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 10 years ago
#60

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

^^ Perceptions cant be validated !..



But can be explained and justified.

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

everybody is free to have their own perceptions & live in their own lala land, be it Emma Watson or any of the people in the above mentioned videos.



This shows the level of open mindedness and respect you have towards those who hold a contradictory opinion. I would dismiss those with an opposing view as living in lala land. I understand that they have certain experiences and reasons why people hold differing views.. I don't doubt their judgement if they don't align with mine. Thinking that the opposite view is in lalaland is not conducive to successful discussion.

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

..there are several videos on YouTube that discourage basic human rights in the name of Humanity,Religion & Science & at the same time, make it sound completely sane & rational.. i certainly am not going to take the pains to quote the videos for u..simply bcoz i think its absolutely unnecessary..



In that light, why engage in any discussion or debate at all? Aren't there equal number of people encouraging human rights in the name of humanity, religion, science at the same time. Couldn't the opposite side call these people the ones making something unreasonable sound sane and rational.

The least we can do is listen to the different perspectives. See why they are different from ours. Understand and dissect their rationale. Only when we open our mind and listen can we be equipped to critique an argument of having sound/unsound premises and coherent/fallacious conclusions.


Originally posted by: Quixotic5

i think each of us have our own head to think through a situation & decide whats right & whats wrong.. i do have my own sense of justice and i will stand by it.. yes, 'my perceptions'.. but the matter of whose perceptions are closer to reality , is debatable ( & understandable) .. the debate in my opinion will be productive if it is carried out on logical grounds & not completely governed by exaggerated perceptions..



And who is deciding who is the logical ground and who is the exaggerated perceptions? Isn't that again a matter of perception.

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

I still stand by "women's rights" & i will do everything in my power to get rid of the patriarchal mindset that affects both men & women.. Feminism is NOT the way to do it for OBVIOUS reasons..



If you want to balance chemical equations and call them quadratic equations, then by all means be my guest.

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

i feel that after a certain point , the 'evolved feminism' is no different from patriarchy.. both are sinister & both place unreasonable expectations on both sexes..



Please give me an examples of unreasonable expectations placed on men and/or women by feminism and I will refute them as actually being patriarchal expectations being mistakenly credited to feminism.

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

I believe its about time that the 'evolved' Feminism should be thrown out & completely discarded while encouraging 'gender neutrality'.. i believe that its absolutely prudent that the 'evolved' nonsensical Feminism shouldnt be encouraged..



No feminist subscribes to dual standards or gender inequality.

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

i believe gender-neutrality is the key to gender-equality...



If X = 5 and Y = 10 what can you do to make X and Y equal. We can subtract 5 from Y. We can add 5 to X. We can add 2 to X and Subtract 3 from Y.

But you can never make them equal if you insist on adding/subtracting the same amount to both sides.

Feminism is a movement that acknowledges that X is less than Y and is trying to find the most effective way to balance both sides. We are not in a place yet where we can input the same to both sides of the equation and get the same result. Before we can do that we have to balance the equation.

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

Very happy to say that i am an Equalist & NOT a Feminist ! .. Thank You ! 😊



Good for you!

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