Where do you think we came from?

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BirdieNumNum

@CuckooCutter7

Dazzler

Posted: 12 years ago

#101

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

Ahahaha ...😆 ..Right ..But let's not be jealous of the Hens ..Cause their origin is now known ..and we humans are still groping around to find our ...Oh! Please ..😆

😆

seriously, i think we can find answers to origins if we could ever solve the chicken-egg dilemma. It would give folks something concrete to work with, something that can help hatch hare-brained ideas. 😆

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McNinja

@McNinja

Inactive

+ 3

Posted: 12 years ago

#102

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

True that Ninja Girl .. ...The caravan here seems to have lost its way chasing the cosciousness mirage ..But I believe that FT is a astute operator and was easily the smartest person on THIS PAGE until you had posted.. 😆.. . I extol FT for his abillity to scrunge the meaning of the simplest known words , to pretend to be confused and create confusion amongst the opponents ..as much as I extol you for your Bold, to the point posts ...😛 .

Okay ..I won't quibble more and get straight to the point ..a set of questions that haunt my mind which I would wanna put forward for your consideration ...

Phew !!

Vintu ...😛

So we are still at the age-old Atheism vs. Religion debate. No wonder you have wine on hand. 😆

The way I see it, whether you believe in a God, in no God, in science...you are practicing blind faith of sorts, isn't it?

Science has one thing that religion does not, the ability to carry out experiments to support their hypothesis and provide proof. Note: Even science makes no claims to prove anything, as scientists admit there is too much of the unknown that can change everything we have thought to be true. There are still things that science cannot explain. The Big Bang theory describes the universe after that moment of creation, and is supported by a lot of evidence, but it does not describe how the singularity came into existence in the first place. How does an event like that happen, randomly? What happened before that moment? It comes down to what you believe yeah... in science the belief of a zero energy universe and in religion the belief of a higher power. Still nothing is proven beyond doubt eh.

Me personally, I'm a bit of an an anomaly it seems. I studied/study science but consider myself to believe in God. To me, the two things together help explain our existence and don't believe in the notion that the two don't overlap. I have no fancy research paper to refer you to..just what makes the most sense to me. Science tries to explain most things, and I have read books from various monotheistic faiths and feel these religions agree with science. There are some things that science has shown us today, that was already written in some of these books.

So I can't argue against each side, but think that both sides really aren't that different from each other. In the end, both sides have faith in one thing or another and it's impossible to win this debate. And I have blabbered on enough, hope my thought process makes some sense.

I do agree with what someone else mentioned, solving chicken or the egg would solve all these riddles.

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Vintage.Wine

@Vintage.Wine

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#103

@ Ninja Girl

Know what ? You should give a flick to Normal Science ...that relates to Physics, Bio, Chemistry etc ...and contemplate studying Political Science...Join Civil Services ..Especially that handle foreign policies ..Cause from what you have written, I can easily bet my New, Working liver on the chances of you becoming a Great Beurocrat ...Trust me ..I ain't kidding here ..I'm as honest right now as could be ...😛 ...You took both sides ..and balanced em well to finagle a way outta this messy situation ...Wonderful post I say ..Worth commending ..

Alright ..the situation at my end is I'm too knackered right now.. so wanna call it a day ..But please don't consider me a fugitive.. 😆..I ll get back to your post with my detailed answer to that in a few ...

So until then ...

Tara a bit !! 😉

Vintu ... 😛

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#104

Couple of things you guys need to understand, remember and assimilate so we don't keep going in circles:

All the "where/when" questions end with space-time. Space-time can only go so much smaller (Planck!) The "where/when" questions cannot, I repeat cannot, pierce space-time. No point wasting time on these.

The "What" questions could be posed endlessly leading us to an infinite regress. The question "What is it?" could be posed about anything and everything, including fundamental particles and strings. The "what" question will always win at the end (end as in the end of time)

The "How" questions, just as The "What" questions, could be posed endlessly as well. The How is supposed to explain the events that led to the springing forth of this universe. So, if it was pure energy (supergravity) to begin with, The How should explain how the so-called supergravity came into being in the first place. If it is a multiverse, The How should explain how the multiverse came into being and which universe among the multiple universes started first. If a designer/God was responsible, The How should explain how the designer/God came into being in the first place. If it is a machine, The How should explain how the machine came into being, how the machine was built (or built itself) in the first place. If it is consciousness, The How should explain how the consciousness came into being. So, just as the "What" questions, the "How" questions will also win at the end (again, end as in the end of time)

I don't see a way out. But nobody said this is easy.

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_Angie_

@_Angie_

Rocker

Posted: 12 years ago

#105

^^ If only one could log into The Source!

Any master hackers around ?

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#106

Originally posted by: _Angie_
^^ If only one could log into The Source!
Any master hackers around ?

This is critical to understand so here goes:

"The Source" is but a noun. You could use any noun you want.

Irrespective of the noun that you use, it will not put an end to the questions that concern themselves with "what is this noun made of?" and "how did this noun come about".

P.S: I am beginning to think there is pretty much nobody in this world at my wavelength...

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Freethinker112

@Freethinker112

Sparkler

Posted: 12 years ago

#107

^ And what wavelength are you travelling on?

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Freethinker112

@Freethinker112

Sparkler

Posted: 12 years ago

#108

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine
Alright ...Alright ...😆...But then some people lose their abillity to smell or a few become deaf or blind . ..( Blind physically ..And Not in LOVE ...😆 ..The worst I have heard of is someone becoming Dwarf in LOVE ..What a Liar ...Sheesh ! ..😆 ) The sensory organs / machinery are still there, generating nuff signals ..but the brain is on the blink ..= Leading to the loss of sensations pertaining to that perticular organ / sense ... ..Which still doesn't mean the Eyes, the Ears or the Nose ..ie : The living cells in there have died ...In some cases ..all sensory mechanism works well ..Like in the case of the color blind people ..They can see all colors but can't comprehend the signal well ... ..life defo is independent of abillity to sense ..or awareness or cognition..

To sum up the aforementioned points ..Organs lose something EXTRA, a level of consciousness thats subtle and beyond the control of the brain ...as they are slit off the body ..And the death occurs LOCALLY ...the part thats been cut off dies ..Which in turn means the consciousness there is lost ...😊

If brain can't interpret the signal properly, we don't have the correct experience. This is not a matter of concern. You are mixing function, consciousness and life.

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine
^^^ Exactly my point ...Heart won't be dead in such a case ..And this is connotative ...The death of the brain and it's conscious mechanism doesn't override the heart's abillity to live and Lab Dab ..😛

Who is arguing that the heart stays alive? If it is working, it is alive. But how does this shed light on whether it is conscious or not? Is life=conscious?

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine
..The decision to filter out something ie : Creatinine , leaving behind something else ie : Protein thats needed for the body sounds like a conscious one, like a encoded, conscious instruction that gets executed automatically and correctly ..And let me tell ya ..there is some definite program that all of us come preloaded with that changes some decisions irrespective of our will or desire ...I ll give ya a couple of examples ...The simplest being ...The Uncontrolled growth of the cells ...Commonly alluded to as Cancer ..If the brain can take the conscious decisions or instruct our organs to correct their blunder ..such a disaster won't happen ...But it does...when the program malfunctions for the worse ..and the decisions ( In accordance with whats embedded the DNA ..) are changed ..

Another such example is ' Autoimmune diseases' ...LIke ITP = Immune Thrombocytophenic Perpura ... <<< See ..what happens here is ..Our own immune system starts to reckon our own Platelets as enemy cells ...Foreign maerial .and starts to annihilate them inside the Spleen ..<< Now who took this decision ? If the organ's actions were governed by our conscious brains? The state is fatal and leads to profuse bleeding everywhere inside the body ...including the brain ..

You just stated it all yourself ...In sleep we are not conscious ? << Um ...There is another something called the Subconscious mind too ..And in either case ..are you suggesting that the Consciousness is LOST during the sleep ? << That makes the sleep and the death sound the same ...😆 ..or wait ...install a camera in your bedroom ( Just make sure you are the only human in the BED that time to make everything look decent...😆 ) and let the Bed Bugs bite ya ...And you ll see yourself scratching at that point as the camera records your movements ...Now do you think a Dead Persons would react the same way ? Scratch around if the Bugs bite them ? ...😆

Of course for being Self aware ..one has to be alive ..but for being Alive one doesn't necessarily need to be Self Aware ..<< That's the sweet point ..😆

Doesn't the unconscious part of the brain control the life processes? Isn't conscious decision, something you think about and decide? And as to scratching in sleep, our senses are still working during sleep, but we are not aware of what we do at that time. Isn't sleeping being unconscious?

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

^^^ WTH ...😆 ..This ain't as abstruse as knowing what CAME first ..The Chicken or the Egg ..😆 ...Are ya trying to say that the MATTER came first and the Energy ( Which I'm sure is conscious ) followed that ? ..Well ...Let me assert FREE ...There is no point being tetchy about the whole thing .. Columbus travelled WESTWARDS to reach the EAST ..and accidentally found a newer continent ...I don't think we would get lucky like him in this situation ..the conundrum ain't that easy , and the mystery is way too shrouded ...We might believe we are headed forward ..but we are sure to reach the point from where we had started back in time...the point where we left the last thread ...and the question unanswered ..Everything comes back to ONE thing ..where did the first piece of matter come from ..and to even try to know that we must admit first that it was the energy that created everything ...

The Law of Conservation of Energy states : Energy can't be created or Destoyed .. <<< When we know this and make it the base of a vast portion of our contempoary science ..is there even a point to go identifying the Origin ? <<< See ..We are on about the Energy ..that has existed forever ...and shall exist forever ...It existed when no matter did ..and shall exist after all the matter is gone ..May be to create more ...So the Energy it is that CAME first ...Now if you agree to this ..my question to you is ... Did that energy take a Conscious decision to create matter ? and everything thats so astoundingly systematic in nature ? Who promulgated the laws that bind everything so impeccably well ? And if you think there was no degree of consciousness involved in the procedure, ...I would like you to give me a reason how and why do you think such randomness could lead to the creation of the Universe ..or may

Egg came first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg#Science

Again, you call energy a thing. Energy is not a thing in itself, it is possessed by a body, a property of it. How can energy be conscious? That would make the particle conscious?

Who said, energy existed on its own? Something has to exist to possess energy. Yes, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so how all the existing energy came to be, that is the question. Again energy can't come first, energy is a property, not an independent thing. Consciousness of what? What possessed consciousness at the time of Big Bang?

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Freethinker112

@Freethinker112

Sparkler

Posted: 12 years ago

#109

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

The thing is consciousness is such a broad term, and you ignore what I actually am trying to convey by that word.

And man, how many times do I say this? 😆 Energy has no separate existence, it is possessed by a particle. So no, energy didn't "create" everything, it was already here. And the total amount remains fixed. What's curious is how did we end up with the existing energy?

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 12 years ago

#110

Originally posted by: Freethinker112
Yes, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so how all the existing energy came to be, that is the question.

Consciousness of what? What possessed consciousness at the time of Big Bang?

Originally posted by: Freethinker112
^ And what wavelength are you travelling on?

The wavelength of the wave that realized that asking questions like "How all the existing energy came to be" or "What possessed consciousness at the time of Big Bang?" is futile because anything can be preceded with a How or a What and there is no end to that line of questioning.

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