Right to Abortion

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496295

Suspended

Posted: 13 years ago

#61

^^^ Hmm...y'have a point there, I guess.

But then, that does not negate the other pro-choice points that were stated here. 😳

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woman11

@woman11

Voyager

+ 2

Posted: 13 years ago

#62

not at all, i am not dismissing any point of view, nor do I have a right to do so. I am just ruling out the possibility that Jaggu-Gauri's conception was accidental, there was no planning in the first place🤣

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 13 years ago

#63

Originally posted by: bips
For people who are saying that Gauri should carry the baby and then give it up for adoption or that jagya should be raising the child most of the time ...

... This is one of the most sexist statements i have heard ... What you are saying is that the woman's body is some sort of item available for rent ... She doesn't want a child but the father does so she should loan out her body for 9 months, her milk for 4-5 months and then her job is done

women who give up their children for adoption immediately after birth are those who CANNOT care for a child not those who don't WANT a child.

Why are all the feminists so pro choice (or pro abortion) ?
... Because the right to your own body is the most fundamental rights of all - more the right to education/ food/ clean water etc etc ... If you do not have a say in what your own body should do, then what freedom are you talking about ?

Can you imagine if laws are passed banning abortions because the husband doesn't want one ? ... Its a down slide from thereon ... Next will be marital rape - a woman shouldn't have the right to say 'no sex' to her husband ... next what treatments can a woman say her body should be subjected to - say a woman is barren ... her husband says i want a child ... his wants but her body ... so he forces her to have IVF even if she doesn't want it (its damn painful) ... a husband has a defective organ say a kidney, wants his wife to give one ... its the least she can do to save her husband's life ... she doesn't get a choice etc etc etc

See where this will go ... The right to your own body ... that is what this is about ... A woman is not just a machine for child birth and neither is a child a punishment for a thoughtless night that one has to "suffer the consequences" as some people put it

Do you believe that men have any reproductive rights in the first place? Or are they totally @ the mercy of their wives on this one? Yeah, I know we can't get pregnant, but then w/o us, you can't either (until the day one can create both sperms and ovules from over the counter germ containers, and incubate it for the entire 9 months until it's ready to release) Yeah, I'm against marital rape and forcing women to get pregnant, but once they are, and particularly if the man is a husband, and not some drive-by sperm donor, I certainly don't think he should have no say in whether his fetus gets aborted.

Which is precisely why I oppose the feminists on this, despite being pro choice myself - the bulk of them (I'm talking mainly about the West here) don't believe that men should have any such rights.

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bips

@bips

Sparkler

+ 8

Posted: 13 years ago

#64

^^ I agree with you on how men seem to be given the shortchange when it comes to the abortion issue ...

... but is there any other way around it ? If women cannot get pregnant without the male contribution, men also cannot have a child without a woman. So that point is moot ... What to do when one partner wants a child and the other does not ? ... The best a doctor can suggest is counseling . Hopefully one of the partner will understand the other's point of view. Beyond that there is nothing that can be done.

because in the end, its a woman's body that has to nurture the child for nine long months. And a man cannot force a woman to have a child. Once the child is born, once it is out in the world, it is equal rights to both but as long as the child is in the womb, it is all about the woman's choice because it IS her body.

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hooked

@hooked

Dazzler

Posted: 13 years ago

#65

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Do you believe that men have any reproductive rights in the first place? Or are they totally @ the mercy of their wives on this one? Yeah, I know we can't get pregnant, but then w/o us, you can't either (until the day one can create both sperms and ovules from over the counter germ containers, and incubate it for the entire 9 months until it's ready to release) Yeah, I'm against marital rape and forcing women to get pregnant, but once they are, and particularly if the man is a husband, and not some drive-by sperm donor, I certainly don't think he should have no say in whether his fetus gets aborted.

Which is precisely why I oppose the feminists on this, despite being pro choice myself - the bulk of them (I'm talking mainly about the West here) don't believe that men should have any such rights.

This is a most interesting debate - Thankyou WOMAN11

@Vrish - A baby needs a set of parents - provider and nurturer. Earlier when the roles were clear cut - this debate was easy - the provider called the shots. But now that the nurturer has also started becoming the provider - men seem to be at the unfair end sometimes.

But in a loving relationship - if there is sufficient love and understanding, they both shud be able to work out solutions to if/when to have or not have a child.

A man can commission considerable charm and some candle light dinners to woo his wife/lady into aggreeing to his wishes perhaps ?? Just use some persuasion and dedication to your cause - the same kind that u used when wooing 😳

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tinoo

@tinoo

Rocker

Posted: 13 years ago

#66

Originally posted by: hooked
[

That said - eventually he will reach a stage when he will want to trace his family and see if he can find them and maybe help them. He will wonder whether at any point we loved him less and would his own mother have loved him more. Net Net - he will not be always at peace with himself and will always wonder why me ? No matter how much I tell him about Krishna and KungFu PAnda and Superman and Mowgli and the ICE AGE baby - all of whom grew up with plenty of love in other families - his heart will yearn for his own mother.

And I wonder - that birth mother - how often must she yearn for him and wonder if he is getting loved and whether his new family is sensitive or harsh.

Hooked, I think its wonderful that you've adopted this special child. You can tell him that there are two kinds of families -- birth families and heart families (what anandi once referred to as dil ka rishta with her sasural) . And he is special that he is part of a heart family -- you are a parent child match to each other because of the love from your heart.

When he asks why me? Instead of making it seem as if his mother pushed him away, maybe you can reframe it to him that you loved him so much more that you pulled him away. And that his mother loved him so much, that she freed him to become the person whom he was meant to be so that he could get the best opportunities which she herself was not in a position to provide him. .

(Not that she abandoned him type of a thought). But that he's so incredibly special which is why he's one of the chosen few who belongs to a heart family. Any old person can belong to a birth family. Tell your child that he is meant to do special things and big things which the world has not yet even conceived.

Instead of kundfu panda (adorable) and superman and Krishna-- who are fictional and mythological characters, why not tell him about real life adoptees.

Steve Jobs is the most recent adoptee we can talk about -- his birth father was a syrian muslim political science prof (Abdulfattah jandali) who came to the U.S. to study and got into a relationship with an american catholic woman (Joanna scheible) - and the result was she became pregnant. He broke the relationship off with absolutely no consideration for this woman -- and the woman's father did not want her marrying a muslim foreign student.

So, she gave birth and put up the child for adoption at an orphanage.

A couple both 12th standard pass - Paul and clara jobs adopted him -- and brought him up as their own child.

Later on when he turned adult, he did go looking for his biological parents. He met his biological mother twice, but never had any relationship with her. He absolutely refused to meet his biological father.

His biological father angered by his refusal to meet him (awed by the fact that the rich steve jobs was his son) made several attempts to talk to him and gave an interview to the press (quite offensive at the time) saying that steve jobs should meet him, because he is a success now only because of the genes he received from Jandali.

Steve Jobs replied that he believed his success was because of the loving environment that his parents -Paul and Clara jobs had provided him with. And his father was a mechanic and had spent hours with steve as a teenager teaching him the internal workings of things. He had absolutely no feelings for his biological father who said at the time to throw him into an orphanage.

Your child is so lucky that he has the love of a birth mother AND an adopted mother (not instead of the birth mother, but in addition to...). Tell him that his mother wanted him to examine new perspectives in life that came living with you.

Another example, Aristotle too was an adopted child. His father was a physician to the King and wanted him to become a doctor. But his parents passed away when he was three years old. He was put up for adoption then to an orphanage because his relatives were not interested in keeping this child. And he was adopted by another gentleman and his wife who was a disciple to plato ... and sent him to Plato's academy. Aristotle spent 25 years at Plato's academy and became a philosopher... and a much better philosopher than he would have been a doctor perhaps.

So, in one sense, his birth parents freed him up to be the fullness of who he would be.

😃

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tinoo

@tinoo

Rocker

Posted: 13 years ago

#67

I dont want to get into the debate on abortion --

but I do believe that the issue right here is not just unplanned pregnancy ... it is unplanned EVERYTHING about their relationship.

It is one thing to have a plan in place ... and some obstacle happens which throws that plan out of whack.

But it is completely another thing to have no plan in place ... and just live on a day-to-day basis sort of thing.

I believe that Jagya and Gauri despite living together briefly, and despite having spent five years together never really discussed their visions for their lives and what they wanted out of a marriage. Were her ideas and vision in alignment with his for what constitutes a valid family life?

Did she want children? children not now, or children not at all? What about responsibilities to parents in old age? old age homes or in-home care? Are they on the same page about different things that are important? About buying a house? About which causes are important to them for giving to charity? How to share money? What sort of responsibility is required if one person's parent has a stroke and is bed ridden. etc. etc. etc.

There are so many, many lists on the internet about 'hundred questions to ask your partner before you get married' also 😆

The loose, "let it evolve and we'll deal with when it arises" or crossing the bridge when it comes attitude is particularly irresponsible in my opinion... and then saying "I cant believe he/she feels that way".

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hooked

@hooked

Dazzler

Posted: 13 years ago

#68

Tinoo - I am truly glad about Steve Jobs coz he has now become as mythic a character as Superman or Krishna. My son is just 4 currently, hence the Mowgli and Kungfu Panda examples. The logic currently is to build a base for the theory that all special people mostly have very special beginnings. 😳.

But the process of adoption taught me that while the adopting parents are screened so stringently about their finances, their physical health, their friends and family and their mental makeup and even have to have a police screening for any past misdemeanors and numerous interviews and parenting classes - nobody questions the qualifications on all these parameters of all those people who become parents simply because they were fertile and sometimes didn't even plan for it.

That is why I think that those who feel that they r not ready for a child - shud not have child. These are precious cargo - they nedd careful handling and are not guinea pigs for experimenting by -have-no-time-for-anything-but-my-life- people.

Also to all - We did not do anything super by adopting him - he completed us as a family and has brought us lots of joy. When he looks at me and says - Mama I love you and hugs me - that joy is something no amount of money could have brought me. All kids are precious - and they need to be with people who can love them unconditionally 😊

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sree.m

@sree.m

Explorer

Posted: 13 years ago

#69

Very interesting discussion.

Right to abortion relates to a woman's right to her health and her socio - economic conditions.

If a career woman thinks she cannot be satisfied to be a 100% responsible mother secondary to the demands of a busy career, it is ideal that the unborn child suffers the pain of termination of pregnacy than be born and live to suffer forever the absence of her mother at moments when she needs her the most.

I feel if unborn children could speak their minds having an an idea what suffering life is going to offer them be it when they need their mother around them to take care of their needs be it hunger or need for a warm cuddle to allay all fears with strangers around, I think majority would choose to suffer the pain of termination of pregnancy, than live in fear and pain, due to separation from their parents.

Coming to the track in the soap, it is ideal that G decides to abort this child, because she is not financially capable of her supporting herself leave alone the child. She comes across as a DUMBOOO for not being able to judge what pain and ridicule that child may undergo in the society she lives in being called an illegitimate child, especially given the fact she is heart broken and distraught living her life as a mistress of J

Edited by sree.m - 13 years ago

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ambodidi

@ambodidi

Explorer

Posted: 13 years ago

#70

I don't believe that any of us can really understand another person's compulsions. If a woman feels she is not able to look after a child, she is better off aborting the child than giving birth to yet another unwanted child and taking out her anger on the child constantly. If you see it as killing a baby, then it should not be allowed no matter what the circumstances. Someone here mentioned they had seen an aborted foetus; then we should also know that most abortions are in the first trimester, and they don't really look like anything but a blood clot with the naked eye. Unscrupulous doctors in India will still happily do a termination in the third trimester, and I agree fully that that is killing because the foetus can live outside the womb in most cases with medical support. As long as a mother houses the foetus inside her own body, her opinion is the most important issue. When we are able to grow babies in labs (this will happen one day), we can enforce our opinions on pregnant women.

Several studies have found that adopting a child out is more traumatic than terminating a child, and India is full of orphanages which are full of children. There are more than enough kids for every childless couple that wants a child.

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