Balaram on Dice Game - Page 16

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CaptainSpark thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I would conclude this with words on Yudhishtira from the man who never lied -


Yudhishtira - "'I am the worst of men, and the exterminator of my race. I am a wretch. I am addicted to wicked courses. I am of foolish understanding. I am idle and a coward. I am an insulter of the old. I am cruel. What wouldst thou gain by always being obedient to a cruel person like me? A wretch that I am, I shall this very day retire into the woods. Live you happily without me."


Pandavas + Draupadi *Nodding to each other*- Let's... AND They live happily ever after



OMG 🤣

CaptainSpark thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar


I don't think any one is getting my point.😒


The immorality of it was a lost argument which she first tried.


Who is criminal and who is not didn't matter. What mattered is they were unable to decide because either way would have meant she won. if Yudhishtira did have the right to stake her, as his wife, she was still their sister-in-law. If he didn't, she was free.


None of it meant she knew she would succeed. No strategy is foolproof. Vastraharan and Suyodhana's dumb offer helped. But he wouldn't have blurted out the offer if she hadn't made the argument in the first place.


Re: Shakuni. It was a strategic move because later, it would help them establish legitimacy.


Will agree to disagree re: Bheeshma, but I will never consider someone who actively argued (as opposed staying dumbly silent) that Panchali was legally a sex slave in any way, shape, or form to be correct or moral or just.

.


Yes I am not saying Bhishma was right, in fact I am saying Bhishma saying doesn't in anyway justify it or prove it is correct. I agree it was wrong. 😆

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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

See Panchali was his best friend, he obviously did feel when she got assaulted and it was important that her assault is avenged. But I do not think Krishna engaged in the war mainly because of this reason. This is not a small reason at all, but well Yudhishthir could be killed too. If you completely remove divine elements, then Bhishma or Drona could imprison Yudhishthir. The war's effect was unknown to him too then.

The war was important because it was needed for removing Duryodhan who had committed a no of crimes (even leaving out dice game). Yudhishthir may be a flawed human being and I do believe he was, but if he was Vidur's son and Vidur eldest I do believe he had main claim to the throne. He was elder to Duryodhan too.

Krishna is an enigmatic individual. I do not believe he was GOD or Vishnu's avatar. But I do believe he was above mere mortal beings. He had a greater aim than his personal avenging for his bestie's assault.

I also don't completely discard what he said about establishing of Dharma. He did explain clearly what his purpose was. In the eyes of LAW, as per your views too, Yudhishthir was better than Duryodhan. It's not impossible to believe Krishna wanted the correct man to ascend the throne.


Avenging is different from justice. What Panchali says needs to happen is justice. She earlier says to Yudhishtira it is their duty as rulers.


See her words below. What she is doing is recounting what should be done to criminals who do not repent. Then, she points out to Krishna what the Kauravas did. This is twisted by many by cutting the first part and focusing solely on the second. She is asking Krishna to do his duty, ie dharma


Also see his response in the same citation.


Pandavas were in it for their land and brother, not for dharma or Panchali.


Dhrishtadyumna was in it for his sister personally.


Krishna was working to establish dharma. But the biggest symbol of adharm at that point was the assault on her. So yeah, that was his primary aim, not land or power.




https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05082.htm

hose enemies, O Krishna, with whom peace cannot be established by either conciliation or presents, should be treated with severity by one desirous of saving his life. Therefore, O mighty-armed Achyuta, heavy should be the punishment that deserves to be speedily inflicted upon them by thyself aided by the Pandavas and the Srinjayas. Indeed, even this would become the son of Pritha, and add to thy glory, and if accomplished, will, O Krishna, be a source of great happiness to the whole Kshatriya race. He that is covetous, whether belonging to the Kshatriya or any other order, save of course a Brahmana, even if most sinful, ought surely to be slain by a Kshatriya, who is true to the duties of his own order. The exception in the case of a Brahmana, O sire, is due to a Brahmana's being the preceptor of all the other orders, as also the first sharer of everything. Persons conversant with the scriptures declare, O Janardana, that sin is incurred in slaying one that deserveth not to be slain. So there is equal sin in not slaying one that deserveth to be slain. Act thou, therefore, O Krishna, in such a way with the forces of the Pandavas and the Srinjayas, that sin may not touch thee. From excess of confidence in thee, O Janardana, I will repeat what hath been said again and again. Whatever woman, O Kesava, is there on earth like me? I am the daughter of king Drupada, risen from the sacrificial alter. I am the sister of Dhrishtadyumna, thy dear friend, O Krishna. I have by marriage become a lady of Ajamida's race,--the daughter-in-law of the illustrious Pandu. I am the queen of Pandu's sons, who resemble five Indras in splendour. I have, by these five heroes, five sons that are all mighty car-warriors, and that are morally bound to thee, O Krishna, as Abhimanyu himself. Being such, O Krishna, I was seized by the hair, dragged into the assembly and insulted in the very sight of the sons of Pandu and in thy life-time. O Kesava, the sons of Pandu, the Panchalas, and the Vrishnis being all alive, exposed to the

p. 170

gaze of the assembly I was treated as a slave by those sinful wretches. And when the Pandavas beholding it all sat silent without giving way to wrath, in my heart I called upon thee. O Govinda, saying,--Save me, O save me!

....

he mighty-armed Kesava then spoke, comforting her in these words, 'Soon wilt thou, O Krishna, behold the ladies of Bharata's race weep as thou dost. Even they, O timid one, will weep like thee, their kinsmen and friends being slain. They with whom, O lady, thou art angry, have their kinsmen and warriors already slain. With Bhima and Arjuna and the twins, at Yudhishthira's command, and agreeably to fate, and what hath been ordained by the Ordainer, I will accomplish all this. Their hour having arrived, the sons

p. 171

of Dhritarashtra, if they do not listen to my words, will surely lie down on the earth turned as morsels of dogs and jackals. The mountains of Himavat might shift their site, the Earth herself might spilt into a hundred fragments, the firmament itself with its myriads of stars might fall down, still my words can never be futile. Stop thy tears, I swear to thee, O Krishna, soon wilt thou see thy husbands, with their enemies slain, and with prosperity crowning them.'"

Edited by HearMeRoar - 5 years ago
naq5 thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I would conclude this with words on Yudhishtira from the man who never lied -


Yudhishtira - "'I am the worst of men, and the exterminator of my race. I am a wretch. I am addicted to wicked courses. I am of foolish understanding. I am idle and a coward. I am an insulter of the old. I am cruel. What wouldst thou gain by always being obedient to a cruel person like me? A wretch that I am, I shall this very day retire into the woods. Live you happily without me."


Pandavas + Draupadi *Nodding to each other*- Let's... AND They live happily ever after


actually they should have done this.😆

krishna could have conspired to get this done earlier itself. he would have had things more easy. yudi would not listen to him but the other brothers would for sure

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Posted: 5 years ago

I guess I am not able to express myself, I simply want to say that Yudhishtir+DDSK were equally at fault and crime for the dice hall incidence


Rest Draupadi and her points were most relevant those couldn't be denied. Her actions and presence of mind saved the day for them

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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I would conclude this with words on Yudhishtira from the man who never lied -


Yudhishtira - "'I am the worst of men, and the exterminator of my race. I am a wretch. I am addicted to wicked courses. I am of foolish understanding. I am idle and a coward. I am an insulter of the old. I am cruel. What wouldst thou gain by always being obedient to a cruel person like me? A wretch that I am, I shall this very day retire into the woods. Live you happily without me."


Pandavas + Draupadi *Nodding to each other*- Let's... AND They live happily ever after



OMG I would have so loved this


Why didn't younger four compel him to suicide

naq5 thumbnail
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Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: NoraSM


Agreed


Now, without expecting a prolong debate on this, I will tell you what is my opinion on the war


You see people who died in the war are not punished, they died fighting that's their Kshatriya duty, it's not only Duryodhana, Dushashan, Bheeshma, Karna, Drona, Shakuni who died, there were people like Vikarna, Abhimanyu, Gatothkach too

This is why I don't think she got justice in form of the war as she lost her sons too 💔

She lived in Van with Yudi for 12 years, abducted, assaulted and almost sexually harassed twice while chandal chaukdi lived in palace, died in the battle like they are supposed to

Mute spectators like Dhritarashtra didn't get punishment because he wasn't part of the war, Although I read that Bheema insulted him later, so that's one good thing


There's always a chance of death in war, it is not justice but they made it personal here and there which was nice like Bheema drinking Dusashan's blood and killing 99 other Kauravas, Arjun sparing Duryodhana as Bheema has to kill him, Arjun killing Karna and Bheema sparing karna as Arjun has to kill him, Sahdev killing Shakuni reminding them of what they did to her


War was War, the stake was a Kingdom


I'd rather they had died for what they did to her that's just my Wishful thinking, not saying what happened was wrong or anything

@ bold true. draupadi never got justice i believe. in fact she only lost more

I would like to believe the war was fought more for the kingdom than for justice for draupadi.

What if dury had decided to return indraprastha would they have still fought war for justice. i dont think so

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Posted: 5 years ago

@HearMeRoar - not quoting the whole thing


I believe Krishna'a aim was to establish Dharma but even if we remove dice hall completely, Duryodhan would be as immoral and criminal. I am not saying Pandavas were completely saints, but Duryodhan did represent greed and too much hatred.

But for the sake of argument, let's remove the whole concept of dharma's establishment.


Krishna's enemy was Jarasandha - who was a big threat to him. After the Rajasuya Yajna, he is the one who makes sure Bheem defeats Jarasandha. He knew Bheem could do this, and hence the Pandavas helped him get rid of his enemy.

In return, he helped and supported Yudhishthir's claim to the throne.

Also, Pandavas were his cousins because they were definitely Kunti's biological kids. Nothing wrong in him supporting his own cousins. Same reason why Shakuni supported Duryodhan. He was his nephew.

Panchali was dear to Keshav, no doubt but it is exaggeration to say his main aim was Panchali's assault. Political events of Aryavarta play a role here IMO. He got rid of Jarasandh because of Bheem, Bheem was in it because of property rights. He helped his allies. Simple. Yes another catalyst was his friend got assaulted so he had his reasons to hate the Kauravas. But even without the assault he would have done what he did. He owes Yudhishthir. Also, who doesn't want to be friends with someone who was a contender for the throne? Krishna was not a king. He had two options- Yudhishthir and Duryodhan. Duryodhan was dumb in a way and Krishna knew supporting Yudhishthir would have more for him in store. At the end he lost everything but that's different. He was helping his ally. He isn't the same as Dhrist who was fighting for his biological sister.


Addition: he knew Yudhishthir's claim was more solid than Duryodhan's. So he chose Yudhi's side to give his sister to. Also most probably from favouritism to Arjun got his sister married which was also an important political move. He tried his best to get security for his family and clan.

Panchali is not his main reason at all, IMO.

Edited by CaptainSpark - 5 years ago
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Posted: 5 years ago

^^^ Still he didn't completely abandon Kauravas. Kritvarma and Narayani Sena was given to Duryodhan who was also his Samdhi.


If at all somehow Duryodhan had won the war, he still would have been close to the winning side

1123225 thumbnail
Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

@HearMeRoar - not quoting the whole thing


I believe Krishna'a aim was to establish Dharma but even if we remove dice hall completely, Duryodhan would be as immoral and criminal. I am not saying Pandavas were completely saints, but Duryodhan did represent greed and too much hatred.

But for the sake of argument, let's remove the whole concept of dharma's establishment.


Krishna's enemy was Jarasandha - who was a big threat to him. After the Rajasuya Yajna, he is the one who makes sure Bheem defeats Jarasandha. He knew Bheem could do this, and hence the Pandavas helped him get rid of his enemy.

In return, he helped and supported Yudhishthir's claim to the throne.

Also, Pandavas were his cousins because they were definitely Kunti's biological kids. Nothing wrong in him supporting his own cousins. Same reason why Shakuni supported Duryodhan. He was his nephew.

Panchali was dear to Keshav, no doubt but it is exaggeration to say his main aim was Panchali's assault. Political events of Aryavarta play a role here IMO. He got rid of Jarasandh because of Bheem, Bheem was in it because of property rights. He helped his allies. Simple. Yes another catalyst was his friend got assaulted so he had his reasons to hate the Kauravas. But even without the assault he would have done what he did. He owes Yudhishthir. Also, who doesn't want to be friends with someone who was a contender for the throne? Krishna was not a king. He had two options- Yudhishthir and Duryodhan. Duryodhan was dumb in a way and Krishna knew supporting Yudhishthir would have more for him in store. At the end he lost everything but that's different. He was helping his ally. He isn't the same as Dhrist who was fighting for his biological sister.


Addition: he knew Yudhishthir's claim was more solid than Duryodhan's. So he chose Yudhi's side to give his sister to. Also most probably from favouritism to Arjun got his sister married which was also an important political move. He tried his best to get security for his family and clan.

Panchali is not his main reason at all, IMO.


But all of this post is with re: events prior to dice hall. None of it was he reason for Kurkushetra. If dharma is removed, there was no political reason for Krishna to be in Kurukshetra. His son was married to Suyodhana's daughter. Balram was friendly with Suyodhana. Yadavas were secure from enemies.


The reason for Krishna to be involved in that war was to establish dharma as he himself says. None of the Kaurava adharm prior dice hall prompted him to go war against them. His support for war happened only after dice hall. He gives his reasons to Karna.


CE, Volume 7, Chapter 1217 (67)


SChapter 1217(67)anjaya said, “Vasudeva was stationed on his chariot. He said, ‘O Radheya! It is fortunate that youremember dharma. Quite often, when they are immersed in hardships, inferior ones censure destiny,but not their evil deeds. O Karna! When you, Suyodhana, Duhshasana and Shakuni Soubala broughtDroupadi to the assembly hall in a single garment, did dharma not show itself to you? When, in theassembly hall, Yudhishthira, who was not skilled at dice, was defeated by Shakuni, who was skilled atdice, where did dharma go then? O Karna! During her season, Krishna798 was under Duhshasana’ssubjugation in the assembly hall and you laughed at her. Where did dharma go then? O Karna!Resorting to the king of Gandhara and coveting the kingdom, you challenged the Pandavas.799Where did dharma go then?’ When Vasudeva addressed Radheya in this way, Pandava Dhananjayaremembered all this and was overcome by great rage. Energetic flames of anger seemed to issue outfrom all the pores on his body and it was extraordinary.‘ “On seeing this, Karna again invoked brahmastra against Dhananjaya. He sho

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