THE THINKERS’’..TOPIC 1.

Hi friends,

Today we launch our new thread "THE THINKERS". To be a little organised we shall number the topics along with the subject.When our Sree is a little free from her busy routine,she will do the needful.

Topic 1.

How does one define a feminist? Do you believe you are one? Has the term undergone a change since it's origin?

Come on friends,please spare some time and get going......

On behalf of Astitva Section,

Akshata.

Nice topic Akshata. OK, at the outset, let me say that I did cheat a little, 😉 and actually went to encarta.msn.com to see if what I perceived to be a 'feminist' is actually what a feminist is. Here is what I found

"Definitions:

1. belief in women's rights: belief in the need to secure rights and opportunities for women equal to those of men, or a commitment to securing these

2. movement for women's rights: the movement committed to securing and defending rights and opportunities for women that are equal to those of men"

And yes, this is what I had always thought the word meant. For example, opportunities for equal education, employment (Whether a woman chooses to work or not is a different issue, that is her choice), rights at home, family, etc..For example, as we discussed in Kiran's thread - having different expectations from a DIL and a SIL is not fair and I as a 'feminist' 😉 cannot tolerate that. Also, as time and again we have discussed in the Astitva forum - a woman has as much duty and reponsibility towards her parents as a guy has towards his.. These are just examples of feminism or equal opportunities for women - this is by no means limited to the above and neither is this a fully compiled list (according to me anyway).

I do know that the word and the meaning has now been distorted and is often pereceived as meaning "A woman who is against men or anything masculine". That according to me is just not true and not what I believe in. I have also seen that many women around me try to be 'like the men' and have a feeling that in order to be recognized as efficient and capable (especially at work) they have to be THE men. Which is why some women I know try to act macho and non-feminine the way they talk, their personality, the way they try to be so 'tough' in the behaviour, etc.. That again to me is not what describes a feminist. All this is just the way I perceive it.

LOL, Pallavi...I did the same thing 😉 😆. I thought I would be the first one to respond..but you overtook me.. 😆 😆

I found these interesting set of definitions. Again..I was just curious to know what actually feminism means. Here are some definitions:

1. The belief that women and men are, and have been, treated differently by our society, and that women have frequently and systematically been unable to participate fully in all social arenas and institutions.

2. A desire to change that situation.

3. That this gives a "new" point-of-view on society, when eliminating old assumptions about why things are the way they are, and looking at it from the perspective that women are not inferior and men are not "the norm."

This is what my take on Feminism:

I strongly agree with the 3rd point. Feminism is not fighting against men but to treat women equally with men. It's an effort to let the women know that they are no less than their fellow men. It's just that their minds are trained to accept the things the way they are and not to question from ages.

I read this somewhere long long ago..It was the woman who was treated as the head of the family. She would go out and earn. But as the days went by, woman needed man's support as she was busy with her woman activities like motherhood, looking after the child etc. So the man started going out to earn their bread. That's how man became head of the family as he worked hard for the family. With the advent of civilization, there were some customs introduced for woman and they started treating woman as a weak substance.

Many centuries, decades and years passed by. The theory of woman being the weak substance no longer holds good. As any other thing, feminism also has its limitations. It is about women being treated equally like men but it is neither women hating men nor degrading men. There are certain things only men can do and there are certain things which only women can do. Both are equally important for a peaceful society. I conclude with my definition of feminism as follows:

"Feminism is helping women understand their powers and letting the men know how important is women's role in the society".

Originally posted by: xyzzee

Nice topic Akshata. OK, at the outset, let me say that I did cheat a little, 😉 and actually went to encarta.msn.com to see if what I perceived to be a 'feminist' is actually what a feminist is. Here is what I found

"Definitions:

1. belief in women's rights: belief in the need to secure rights and opportunities for women equal to those of men, or a commitment to securing these

2. movement for women's rights: the movement committed to securing and defending rights and opportunities for women that are equal to those of men"

And yes, this is what I had always thought the word meant. For example, opportunities for equal education, employment (Whether a woman chooses to work or not is a different issue, that is her choice), rights at home, family, etc..For example, as we discussed in Kiran's thread - having different expectations from a DIL and a SIL is not fair and I as a 'feminist' 😉 cannot tolerate that. Also, as time and again we have discussed in the Astitva forum - a woman has as much duty and reponsibility towards her parents as a guy has towards his.. These are just examples of feminism or equal opportunities for women - this is by no means limited to the above and neither is this a fully compiled list (according to me anyway).

I do know that the word and the meaning has now been distorted and is often pereceived as meaning "A woman who is against men or anything masculine". That according to me is just not true and not what I believe in. I have also seen that many women around me try to be 'like the men' and have a feeling that in order to be recognized as efficient and capable (especially at work) they have to be THE men. Which is why some women I know try to act macho and non-feminine the way they talk, their personality, the way they try to be so 'tough' in the behaviour, etc.. That again to me is not what describes a feminist. All this is just the way I perceive it.

Almost my thoughts, Pallavi. Great!😳👏. I was so tempted to read your message but limited myself to the first 3,4 lines as I was afraid that I would get influenced by your thoughts. 😉

Friends

Me too made a survey with Uncle Google to check whether my thoughts on Feminism and Feminist are right... 😆😆

Before starting to write my points, i would like to share with you certain nice phrases written by prominent people about "Feminist" and "Feminism".

"Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings"

"A feminist is anyone who recognizes the equality and full humanity of women and men."

"Feminism is a recognition of the domination of men over women and attempts by women to end male privilege.... It is a theory, a method, and a practice which seeks to transform human relations."

"Feminism has transformed the lives and aspirations of the majority of women in ways unmeasurable by statistics... raising women's intellectual, economic and political expectations, increasing intolerance of wife beating, rape and other violence against women, redefining women's sexuality."

The meaning of Feminism to me, changes as we move from one phase of life to another... As a kid, we are not aware of these feminist views at all. As we grow up, we tend to learn and imbibe certain things from parents, from teachers, from the outside world. For a girl, the struggle for existence starts from the time she is a teenager, i suppose. I think the very fact that females become the Sacrificial Lamb in difficult paths of life, is a big hit to the Feministic policies they hold .

There comes a stage in every woman's life when she needs to adjust to their siblings of the other sex... Then, comes the phase of life where she needs to go into a new atmosphere, after marriage. In a married life, adjustments and sacrifices are walk of life... It is known fact that a woman who is able to adjust and mould herself well to the new atmosphere, always succeeds in having a happy married life... So these are certain things which a woman, goes thro' in life...

Eventhough the Feminist within us, cribs and cries, as we try our best to mould our behaviour and attitude in every phase of life, we have to also believe and agree that at certain times, adjustments and sacrifices will show us the broad daylight .

Feminism to me, will mean, living a life with happiness without getting suppressed by the people around me. We need to be independent in our views, we need to get our own breathing space in every relationship that we have in life, we need to have the right for pointing out the mistakes that others do, we need to have the right to correct our own people, when need arises. As the definition says, Feminism to me, lies in the very fact that i am also a human being with my own ambitions and aspirations in life. So i need to safeguard the feminist within me, and this can be done only by following certain principles in life.

Though i was not able to discuss at length about the various situations and struggles that a DIL will have with her inlaws and after marriage, I would like to say here, that everyday starts with a new struggle. It so happens sometimes, that even after being married for so many years, we still are at square one, trying to prove our point, trying to make our in-laws happy, trying to keep them happy and contented, trying not to oppose them, trying our best to adjust to their whims and fancies... I would say, a girl who has managed to shrug off all these problems in her life, after marriage, has really been a Feminist...

(Friends, i do not know whether i deviated from the subject, whether i was good enough to see the broad meaning of Feminism... Please feel free to tell me if i am wrong)...

Hi friends,
You made it easy for me by defining the word "feminist".
I did not have to search in any dictionary or sites. [:)

You have already said most of it,I would like to put forth a broader perspective of the word.Here are my views.
A Feminist is definitely someone who believes in the rights of a woman...equal rights.
I would like to stress here that a man can be a feminist too.Unfortunately men who believe in the equal rights of a woman are of a rare breed and looked down upon by their own kind.
Very rightly someone pointed out that a woman does not have to be masculine to prove her feminist views..She can be elegantly draped in a Sari,decked in ornaments and yet be very sure and assertive about her rights.I deliberately mentioned Sari because many men and women think if a woman is traditionally dressed,she is some submissive,"tolerate all nonsense" type.A khadi bag and handloom sari or short hair and shirt and trousers do not reflect feminism.One can be very very feminine and yet a feminist.
Also it's ironical that a woman is often a woman's enemy.Enemy may sound too harsh or extreme,but what I mean is often it's the woman who does not give another woman her rights.Even if she has lived by those rules all her life she chooses to think or act otherwise when it's time for her to actually uphold these values.I am refering to the MIL-DIL issues we discussed in another thread.
The biological differences will always be there...God made us that way,or else He would have created ADAM and STEVE.
Some women unfortunately try to prove their feminist ideas by being too aggressive and defying norms.
Adjustments,Loyalty,Understanding,Having a sense of fairness will not seem like scarifice if men and women do it for the love of a relationship.Many times,a woman is pushed to such limits that she has to become aggressive to assert her rights and is conveniently labeled"oh she is a feminist" as if it were a negative trait.

I think I am a feminist because I would never deprive myself or another woman of something because we belong to the female species.What is right for the goose is good for the gander and the other geese as well!
Anyone who cannot respect another woman's rights is not a feminist.She is just another selfish woman.

All of you have brought out some very good aspects of feminism....discuss them all,beyond the precise meaning,otherwise the topic won't last for a week. Sree,you haven't deviated..just brought out some good points. Hope you will all be back with comments and more ideas.

Shall be back after some serious thinking.
Cheers
Akshata

Well, you all have waid whatever I wanted to say.. 👏 I was thinking about paternity leave Vs Maternity leave. Please do not get me wrong. I am as motherly as one can get. Having had 2 kids and taken off for 12 weeks each time, I am not complaining.
In the US, we have 6 weeks of maternity leave. According to the doctors 6 weeks is enough for a lady to recover, which I am not disputing.
Since Feminism also expands to make men understand the importance of women in society, may be this should be offered to men too, that way the babies can stay home a little longer before we look at other means to take care of them.

Very good points, Sree, Kiran and Akshata. Kiran - I am flattered that you did not want to look at my post before you put yours in 😃 I take that as a compliment as in I am capable of influencing 😉 (in a good way, I hope 😆 ) I completely agree with Sree's points here -

"Feminism to me, will mean, living a life with happiness without getting suppressed by the people around me. We need to be independent in our views, we need to get our own breathing space in every relationship that we have in life, we need to have the right for pointing out the mistakes that others do, we need to have the right to correct our own people, when need arises. As the definition says, Feminism to me, lies in the very fact that i am also a human being with my own ambitions and aspirations in life. So i need to safeguard the feminist within me, and this can be done only by following certain principles in life. "

I also agree with Akshata that a girl/woman need not be tomboyish or masculine (which I unfortunately get to see so often) to be a feminist. One can be very very feminine and be a feminist.

It might seem like I am digressing in what I am going to write but I am not. OK, yesterday's episode of Saath Phere made my blood boil! What else is new - with these serials. The same old crap about a girl being Pariah Dhan, a girl leaves her parents, BS and more BS. Ever since my teenage days (when many people were not so forward thinking) I have always felt and believed that a girl is not a Pariah Dhan - a marriage is between 2 families and that works both ways. The girl's family does not become n-1 where n = number of members before marriage. Rather I believe that in both sides, the number of members becomes n + 1 and m + 1! And this is where the feministic part comes in - yes, a girl needs to adjust, etc, etc. but that has to be applicable to both sides of a relationship. I make all efforts in knowing the customs of my MIL's place and follow that when I am there and likewise, my husband does the same when he is at my parents' place. I do not like this EXPECTATION that a girl has to mould herself, change herself compleetly for the sake of her in-laws (and forget her parents or at least let them take a back seat) but a man sits tight. I believe that marriage is a change in life and it applies to both sides. A man too has to be sensitive enough to see and understand the girls' sentiments about her family, her parents and respect the closeness of their relationship..I know that happens much more now - but even growing up I vowed to myself that nobody and I mean nobody is going to distance the relationship between my parents and me and I told my parent that too. Likewise I do not like wives being overly possesive about their hubbys and trying to distance them from their sisters (which happens many a time too). This aspect of a feministic trait kicked in when I was less than 18 😉

Hello Friends,

Its indeed an interesting topic to discuss.

According to me, feminism is a state which leads woman towards an evolved individual, who sense freedom in all aspects of life.

Feminism is not fighting against men. Feminism is defining herself and having her own opinions about day-to-day matters.

The definition and scope may differ from one woman to another. But it has definetely changed its path since its origin.

I would like to quote few instances

There is a rule in Blore city buses that the front four seats on both the sides are reserved for ladies. Well, one lady calling herself feminist can say that why is there a reservation for ladies? where did the equality theory go? Why cant it be purely first come-first use basis? etc., etc.,
An other lady who also calls herself feminist might fight to the core if she sees any male sitting those seats.

Now how do u conduct yourself in this scenario?

In many of the potlucks here, I have seen all male members gathering at one place and all ladies in another room. I keep wondering why cant all of us sit in one room and enjoy!! so does this make a feminist??

When we visit India, how often do we wear western clothes infront of parents, ILs and rishtedhaars?? We prefer to wear salwar and sarees even though we are comfortable in jeans and T-shirts. If I wear Jeans to say my MIL's native place, I wonder what ppl think about me...If i wear it just bcoz I am comfy, does this make a feminist??

so given all these, I feel 'feminist' is a word which has larger scope. A feminist nature of one woman might be felt so naive and submissive to another woman. It is purely an individual thought & perception

Just my thoughts...

Good points Rajini. Regarding dress code - I think more than feminism that's to do with culture and dress code and that aplies to guys as well:-) I don't know about others but I for one love Indian clothes (especially Salwars) and that's the only reason I don't wear Jeans in India. The choice I have in India is a lot for me to wear Jeans.. Salwars are sooo comfy and decent (not that jeans is not decent but voicing my dressing preferences) and frankly my MIL could care two hoots if I wear Jeans or Salwars! Also, I don't believe that wearing Indian clothes makes one less feministic or inferior or submissive. This dress code applies to men as well - I know of parents who don't want their sons to step out of the house in shorts! I still remember growing up, that 19-20 year old boy/men wearing shorts outside the house was not a common occurrence. We had this neighbour from IIT who always wore shorts when he came home for holidays and my friends and I (we were 17-18) were so tickled and would giggle like silly and we actually nicknamed him Mr. Shorts. Sounds so silly now but my point is dress code plays a role in everyone's life.

As for the seating reservations, good point - but I think that rule was formed probably in the olden days, when men and women would not mix freely so sitting in such close proximity might cause both sides of the party discomfort, don't know, that's my guess!

As for parties - I do think we all make an attempt to have the men and women seated in the same room at least for a while and talk. Of course when it comes to kitchen, some men (like my hubby dear) are clumsy so you find more women in the kitchen pre-dinner, but men do help around with other household work so it kind of balances I think.

This is just the way I view it, not to say that I am right. 😆