Astitva - cultural differnces - Page 4

Originally posted by: lalit1

sorry sree di i would beg to differ
just wearing jeans does not make one modern or hip or even immoral

what one person does to himself/herself is entirely his choice

though ewven i have imbibed the same set of values as u have ( no premarital sex girls and boys shud not mix much with each other) i certainly cannot judge other persons that they are wrong

if a girl or a guy indulges in premariatl sex hanging out with the other gender boozing drinking that does not necessarily make him bad
what makes a person bad is if he hurts others in any way
if he does not hurt me whatever he does shud be fine with me
morals are very relative
what may seem outrageous to me may be very conservative to another
anyway even i am veg, temple going, teetotaller, non smoker dont do drugs
dont party or indulge in ***
but that doesnt make anyone who does that bad
the bottom line is if u r comfortable doing it do it
society should not point at u

Good points.. I would also like to add that just becasue a girl wears jeans or mixes with boys in a friendly manner does not mean that she sleeps around with people and has pre-marital sex all the time.. That depends totally on what parents have taught us and we tend to follow that - regardless of whether we wear jeans or tight tops..

As for the pubs and pub culture, more people have started frequenting late night pubs but again let us look at the kind of people who frequent those - in my observations regular middle class family kids do not do so all the time..I have been around quite a bit in Banaglore and the pub culture has been around fr many years there but even now the kind of people who frequent them are not so often the middle class kinds..

Originally posted by: xyzzee

Good points.. I would also like to add that just becasue a girl wears jeans or mixes with boys in a friendly manner does not mean that she sleeps around with people and has pre-marital sex all the time.. That depends totally on what parents have taught us and we tend to follow that - regardless of whether we wear jeans or tight tops..

As for the pubs and pub culture, more people have started frequenting late night pubs but again let us look at the kind of people who frequent those - in my observations regular middle class family kids do not do so all the time..I have been around quite a bit in Banaglore and the pub culture has been around fr many years there but even now the kind of people who frequent them are not so often the middle class kinds..

Originally posted by: indygirl

All of you made very interesting points ,i want to point out lalits sentence "veg, temple going, teetotaller, non smoker dont do drugs
dont party or indulge in ***". And say that doing either of all these .....with exception of drugs ofcourse , doesn't make people immoral . No matter how much our Indian middle class society frowns on it .

Gotta point one thing out here - if we are following the policy of "live and let live" (as most of us seem to agree upon), we should not even call people doing drugs as immoral. I dont do drugs nor would condone the behavior personally, but i would not call someone who did drugs as immoral!! I would probably look upon it as being a bad habit, just like smoking or drinking excessively, but calling it immoral is kinda wrong - because it is still a judgement call. I have known, in the past few years especiallly, some students/colleagues who do indulge in behaviors like these - but as long as they limit the behavior to themselves in their private space and time, i dont see a reason to judge their morals.

Also i must point out xyzzee's statement about pubbing .I think i could say i belong to the middle class section of the society . I did a lot of pubbing with friends in India and still do so in the U.S . Just want to point out that its each and every one's own choice to party there way . It doesn't make a pub goer immoral , less Indian or lacking values .There are certainly many misconception about the "type" of people who frequent the pub by those who never go to one . Its like forbidden territory for them so therefore one makes assumptions.

Continuing with what i said above, i also feel that pubbing or any such "different from the norm" behavior is not reason enough to call judgement on anybody. It reminds me of a story that i read in the Bible - when the people in the village are throwing stones at a woman of loose character, Jesus stops them and says "Let the one who has no sin be the first to cast a stone." It is kinda like that even with regards to judging these prima facie behaviors by other people. Even if we are non-smoking, teetotalling, non-partying, non-drugging, non-premarital consummating people, we have no right to judge those who are all of some of these. Because maybe what we are is considered to be 'different or immoral' by other points of view. For instance, when love marriages started becoming popular in India about thirty years ago, i am sure a lot of our grandparent's generation people found it to be immoral and unacceptable, yet our generation has grown up not only accepting this behavior but in some of the cases, actually following it. Like someone said earlier, values are typically a generational subjective societal norm.

On the economic boom in India: Money brings with it a lot of societal changes. Whether it is access to different substances (that can be abused) or wealthier lifestyles in general. I remember a time as a little kid when buying a TV meant that "aapke paas bahut paisa hai" and i actually had a very senior family member who went to the extent of saying that "A TV is the surest way to go to hell!!!" Remember that at this time there was barely one channel on TV and it wasnt even a 24 hour channel!!! With the growth of the monthly paycheck in real terms, and the new technology being brought up globally, it is natural that a lot of things change in the society. As we say in economics, the pre-equilibrium conditions are always extremely unstable, volatile, and disturbing. We just have to wait until an equilibrium is achieved with everything else remaining constant. However, incomes and technology are not even near what can be considered constant, so equilibrium is going to take a while!!! 😊

Originally posted by: krutilynn

Gotta point one thing out here - if we are following the policy of "live and let live" (as most of us seem to agree upon), we should not even call people doing drugs as immoral. I dont do drugs nor would condone the behavior personally, but i would not call someone who did drugs as immoral!! I would probably look upon it as being a bad habit, just like smoking or drinking excessively, but calling it immoral is kinda wrong - because it is still a judgement call. I have known, in the past few years especiallly, some students/colleagues who do indulge in behaviors like these - but as long as they limit the behavior to themselves in their private space and time, i dont see a reason to judge their morals.

Continuing with what i said above, i also feel that pubbing or any such "different from the norm" behavior is not reason enough to call judgement on anybody. It reminds me of a story that i read in the Bible - when the people in the village are throwing stones at a woman of loose character, Jesus stops them and says "Let the one who has no sin be the first to cast a stone." It is kinda like that even with regards to judging these prima facie behaviors by other people. Even if we are non-smoking, teetotalling, non-partying, non-drugging, non-premarital consummating people, we have no right to judge those who are all of some of these. Because maybe what we are is considered to be 'different or immoral' by other points of view. For instance, when love marriages started becoming popular in India about thirty years ago, i am sure a lot of our grandparent's generation people found it to be immoral and unacceptable, yet our generation has grown up not only accepting this behavior but in some of the cases, actually following it. Like someone said earlier, values are typically a generational subjective societal norm.

On the economic boom in India: Money brings with it a lot of societal changes. Whether it is access to different substances (that can be abused) or wealthier lifestyles in general. I remember a time as a little kid when buying a TV meant that "aapke paas bahut paisa hai" and i actually had a very senior family member who went to the extent of saying that "A TV is the surest way to go to hell!!!" Remember that at this time there was barely one channel on TV and it wasnt even a 24 hour channel!!! With the growth of the monthly paycheck in real terms, and the new technology being brought up globally, it is natural that a lot of things change in the society. As we say in economics, the pre-equilibrium conditions are always extremely unstable, volatile, and disturbing. We just have to wait until an equilibrium is achieved with everything else remaining constant. However, incomes and technology are not even near what can be considered constant, so equilibrium is going to take a while!!! 😊

Very good points, Kruti..! We certainly cannot be judgemental about others' actions.. I guess though the point here is what we would want *our* children to follow..Much as I am non-judgemental about other people's behaviour, whether it be promiscuity or drugs, I know I would not want my daughter to follow the above.. And that is where the social "norm" or what the majority of middle class is comes into play. Because children are influenced by society some (though I agree that upbringing is the most important factor) and that is where my concern is as to what kind of people my daughter would be interacting with on an everyday basis. And that's what I mean by saying that I do believe that the "values" are pretty intact amongst middle class families. I really think the company that children keep matters which is why I guess people are trying to find out the general environment of middle class India..

Originally posted by: krutilynn

I understand what you are saying, XYZ - you are right i did not quite think that way when i wrote the post - for one, i dont have kids so it is difficult to get into that mindset...but i appreciate your pointing out the point of view 😊 and I totally agree with you.

That is not a problem at all, Kruti:-) Your points made very interesting reading too - got to see things from a different perspective..

Originally posted by: indygirl

I get both your points xyzeee and Krut ( Krut can i call u short for Krut?)!!

Sure you can call me Krut my name is Kruti so its just one 'i' short...LOL

Infact i wouldn't like my daughter to subscribe to promiscuity as well!!! I too strongly belive in sex and love go hand in hand . ( although i don't belive in anything being wrong with pre- marital sex as long as one's not sleeping around casualy for enjoyment) .

I agree with you on this also...premarital sex is OK as long as it is not with everyone around in a person's life 😆 but limited to intimate relationship that is likely to result in a long term committment.

I slightly disagree with you Krut, you rightly mentioned i don't find taking drugs as immoral but a extremely dirty habit that will always ruin your healthy , life etc .( Same goes for smoking and drinking in excesss) .

Yup, thats what i said too..so we agree on this totally. It is a horrible habit - what makes drugs worse than other unhealthy habits is that you are not in control of your behavior either. Its disgusting to watch.

The bottom line we all are trying to make is that i certainly feel our Indian values are intact in all sections of the society!!

Yup, but Indian values are not dependent on these behaviors only. Indian values are the ones that arise out of a firm belief in individuals that come together to make a society that is healthy and that promotes growth of every individual!

Good points indygirl and Krutilynn.

Originally posted by: krutilynn

I agree with you on this also...premarital sex is OK as long as it is not with everyone around in a person's life 😆 but limited to intimate relationship that is likely to result in a long term committment.

Completely agree with you on that - I too believe that if it ends up in a long term relationship and that you know it will end up in a long term relationship it is one thing, but not for the "sake" of it or for the sake of physical pleasure alone..

Yup, but Indian values are not dependent on these behaviors only. Indian values are the ones that arise out of a firm belief in individuals that come together to make a society that is healthy and that promotes growth of every individual!

Could not have put it better Kruti!! Completely agree..! We can disregard certain social values that no longer have meaning but I think many of the Indian values are strong and make sense (according to me anyway) as long as relationships, etc. are concerned. So, social values do have meaning (some of them at least) and living in the society that we do does help us turn into the individuals that we are..