Debate on Feminism ~ Pay-gap . - Page 4

Originally posted by: Angel-likeDevil

I'd like to butt in and add that, finding someone sexy has nothing to do with looks all the time ☺️ 

A man fully dressed with a 'handsome-ness' (that is hard to describe) can be more sexy than a shirtless man. A man who is studying, like a nerdy scientist, or a chef etc... who have no visible intention to appear sexy, but end up looking appealing... We objectify them too upto an extent.. There is a sensualist in everyone(well, there could be exceptions with varying degrees, nothing's absolute) , it is just natural.. 

Kinda off-topic, but after thinking on this issue, I feel it all has mostly to do with deeper issues of the mind than anything else... Men or women that make derogatory comments, it seems, are just projecting their inner psyche. It is sad, but I feel there's no answer for this issue until people themselves change from within... the most this discussions or movements can do is spread awareness and shut them up for fear of being called out upon, that helps a lot though.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Its tough. Sometimes you cannot control what people identify as. 

Some people claim to be Christian and beat a transgender person to death. Some people claim to be Muslim but blow things up. 

Similarly some people claim to be feminist and discriminate against men. You cannot stop them. But you can step up to the plate and set the right example. It can be an uphill battle. But we feminism is important and has to be reclaimed to mean equality - so that more people can stand by it. 

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

We can't oppress a group for decades, centuries or in some cases for millenniums and then one day maybe proffer an apology before declaring equality for all. The ones oppressed cannot catch up that fast. No doubt, there is a balancing act involved but I am afraid that sometimes without committing two wrongs, a situation cannot be righted. I was only saying that we just have to be wary of the pitfalls of such an approach.

Over the years, feminists have done a LOT for women all over the world and we shouldn't take away anything from them. There is also so much more that needs to be done especially when it comes to violence against women. I don't know what their priorities are and I don't know if "they" are one entity. It's possible it's splintered so some kind of a unity is required where "they" can speak with one voice.

At this point, I would like to know in which direction you would like this thread to head :)

Edited by lizzy84 - 7 years ago

Originally posted by: lizzy84

[

Are you trying to say that special considerations should be given but the way these considerations are given is wrong? 

     

OR

Is upliftment of women in name of gender equality a wrong thing to do? 

@ your second choice: 😆 come on now!


What I mean is this (as an example):

That there exists a gender gap, is a fact. Does it mean, we would bridge the gap by hiring more females at work places even when they are not fully qualified and/or more qualified males could be found to fill the positions? That there exists a gender pay gap, is a fact. Does it mean, we would bridge the pay gap by doling out more money as salaries to female workers even when some of them may not deserve those salaries?

As an analogy, take the affirmative action (reservation in India) that tires to "balance out" the past atrocities in order to create a level playing field and for uplifting backward classes. Does meritocracy suffer as a result of that balancing act? In such an eventuality, how do you right the wrongs of the past then without creating new victims?

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

@ your second choice: 😆 come on now!


What I mean is this (as an example):

That there exists a gender gap, is a fact. Does it mean, we would bridge the gap by hiring more females at work places even when they are not fully qualified and/or more qualified males could be found to fill the positions? That there exists a gender pay gap, is a fact. Does it mean, we would bridge the pay gap by doling out more money as salaries to female workers even when some of them may not deserve those salaries?

As an analogy, take the affirmative action (reservation in India) that tires to "balance out" the past atrocities in order to create a level playing field and for uplifting backward classes. Does meritocracy suffer as a result of that balancing act? In such an eventuality, how do you right the wrongs of the past then without creating new victims?

Edited by lizzy84 - 7 years ago

Originally posted by: lizzy84

But can you really point out some  examples where in name of feminism strict actions are taken  or any 'balancing out' considerations are given to women?

Is it soo wrong that qualified , deserving females are asking for bridging down the pay gap? 

I was only cautioning about the pitfalls of any such balancing acts.

But speaking of examples, do you have any, of qualified deserving females who got discriminated based on sex and are paid less consequently?

Gender gap is indisputable. There are worldwide stats to back it up. I am looking at gender pay gap stats; there's some meta-analysis available but I am not sure how accurate that analysis is. For in stance, in the US, after adjusting for choices made by male and female workers in college major, occupation, working hours, and parental leave, multiple studies find that pay rates between males and females varied by 5-6.6% (source: Wiki). Is that an exhaustive list of factors affecting the pay gap? Would the gap go down to 0, if ALL the factors (known and unknown) are taken into account? I don't know, which is why I have my suspicions regarding pay gap.

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

But speaking of examples, do you have any, of qualified deserving females who got discriminated based on sex and are paid less consequently?

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I work at a continuing education department in a well known public university. I went and looked at the salaries of several engineers in equal positions running programs in my department. I noticed that the female engineers draw a salary that ranges from 10K to 50k lower than their male counterparts. 

One male who draws one of the highest salaries is universally known as an imbecile. One of the women who draws a mid-range salary is the most highly qualified and respected in her field. 

Was it sex that caused the discrimination? I cannot say for sure, but the pay does not reflect their performance and qualification. Men seem to get paid more than they deserve. Women seem to get paid less than they deserve. I understand that my gender as a female maybe clouding my judgement. 

We can't judge people based on water-cooler talks but even if we treat the gossip as the truth, it's possible the guy drawing a higher salary is better educated and/or more experienced and/or with the university for a longer period.

Also, I am skeptical of a ~50k difference between two people with the same title. Usually, the salary range won't be that wide unless the job requirements are vague. Either that or some one in finance didn't draw up good compensation plans.

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

We can't judge people based on water-cooler talks but even if we treat the gossip as the truth, it's possible the guy drawing a higher salary is better educated and/or more experienced and/or with the university for a longer period.

We all have at-will employment; the employer is free to discharge individuals 'for good cause, or bad cause, or no cause at all,' and the employee is equally free to quit, strike, or otherwise cease work.If she's smart and capable, she will eventually find something that matches her background. I believe in a country like this, true talent can't be suppressed for long.