Debate on Feminism ~ Pay-gap . - Page 3

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

IF-Stunnerz

+ 6

Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: K.Universe.
It's true that we all own our bodies; it' also true that we all own our minds. So, if I find a picture or video of, say, a scantily clad Scar Jo titillating, then that's my prerogative. Did "sexualization" happen? Damn straight it did. Now, did Scar Jo "self-objectify" herself in the picture/video? Did I objectify her? Is it the media? Is it in my male genes to be visually, physically, psychologically stimulated? You are free to narrow it down or reduce it to whatever you see fit. All I can say is, if a scantily clad Scar Jo willingly appears on the cover of Esquire as the "sexiest woman alive" and insists that she should not be "objectified" but only admired for her persona and IQ, my advise to her would be to instead appear on the Mensa magazine with her insights on Einstein's relativity.

People will always be titillated. Many times it is an involuntary subconscious reaction.

Objectification goes beyond being merely titillated. When a person is objectified, their agency as a human is taken away and they are treated as an object.

When you see a scantily clad Scarlett Johansson how do you see her? As an object for personal gratification? Or a human being with valid thoughts and emotions? Do you see it as an invitation to use her? Or do you still see her as someone with agency from whom you need permission to touch?

When women complain about objectification it is not against human nature to get titillated, it is against using titillation as an excuse to treat people like objects and take away their agency as humans.

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

IF-Stunnerz

+ 6

Posted: 7 years ago

@Angel

I wanted to clarify, I did not expect you to answer all the questions. They were just an example to show how any social issue can get complex or murky.

The goal of feminism is equality. Equality for all humans irrespective of what organs they were born with. Equality for all humans irrespective of what social construct of gender they identify with.

All we can do is call out feminists if they act in a manner which treats a group of people unequally.

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@K.Universe.

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

When you see a scantily clad Scarlett Johansson how do you see her?
The same way you look at a shirtless Brad Pitt or (yuck!) a shirtless Salman Khan.

As an object for personal gratification?
Depends on the mood. If I am bogged down with a bug fix in my code, she could parade naked in front of me for all I care.

Or a human being with valid thoughts and emotions?
Well, we all know they are all humans so why should I make special efforts to look at her as a human (with whatever attributes human possess)? I look at her as I look at other humans. Nothing more, nothing less. As for "with what eyes", there's a time and place for everything. If she's on TV, asking for donations to American Cancer Society, I would appreciate her thoughts and emotions. If she's in a movie scene under the waterfalls, I would appreciate her beauty.

Do you see it as an invitation to use her?
OK, seriously, I don't know what this means.

Or do you still see her as someone with agency from whom you need permission to touch?
I absolutely agree with the consent part between two adults.

When women complain about objectification it is not against human nature to get titillated, it is against using titillation as an excuse to treat people like objects and take away their agency as humans.

But not all are objectified. Are you saying a Marie Curie and a Scarlett Johansson are viewed the same way? By who? The entire society?

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lizzy84

@lizzy84

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades
@Angel
Regarding this
"people are bashing the same woman who owns her own body, when she says women are objectified"

Feminism is a complex issue. Women around the world are not the same. Every woman has a unique set of issues that are important to her. The freedom and rights that one woman seeks is not the same as the other.

A lot of Muslim friends I grew up with fought the hijaab as a sign of oppression. I grew up perceiving the hijaab to be oppressive. But today many Muslim women are fighting for their right to express themselves.

Similarly, when it comes to controversial issues like po*n and prostitution, many women believe these to be inherently anti-feminist. But many women feel that it can be a personal choice.

@angel & lizzy

Regarding "sexualization" of women

A woman's body is often not seen as matter of fact. Once a certain level of skin is exposed society immediately sees it as a "sexual act". Breastfeeding in public is a controversial issue because the exposed breast is considered obscene/sexually explicit. People cannot unlearn this and see that its just a part of a woman's body.

If a woman dresses skimpily - it is believed that the only intent is to attract sexual attention.

If she has sex - it is believed that she is open to sleep with anyone.

In the case of Emma Watson having a revealing photo shoot - immediately she is perceived as being sexual and encouraging objectification - when all she was doing was owning her body.

Don't you think clothes should not be the only criteria for being associated with feminism?

Now with Hijab - I guess it should be one's own choice whether they want to wear it or not.

Forcing women to wear one = oppression

Forcing women not to wear one = oppression.

Therefore for me feminism is all about equality and right to make one's own choice.

Coming to 'sexualization'

I think this sexual objectification is faced by both the sexes.

Be it the showbiz or sometimes real world.

Sexualization is in mentalities.

It becomes a problem when it is given tags, derogatory comments etc.

Eg -When we say Benedict Cumberbatch or any X celebrity is hot, isn't it obvious we are objectifying them on the basis of the looks, body.. (we definitely don't know them personally to make such a claim on basis of their real character)

Therefore we need to first acknowledge that objectification does exist with vague boundaries. We need to find a middle ground here .

Objectification cannot be simply eradicated if start associating it with obscenity or vulgarity .

Other than this I agree with all your points.

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lizzy84

@lizzy84

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: K.Universe.
I think the topic should read - "Does the debate on feminism lag behind the feminist movement itself?". Anything else is not making much sense to me. Actually, even my construction of the subject header is rickety but whatever!

It's true that we all own our bodies; it' also true that we all own our minds. So, if I find a picture or video of, say, a scantily clad Scar Jo titillating, then that's my prerogative. Did "sexualization" happen? Damn straight it did. Now, did Scar Jo "self-objectify" herself in the picture/video? Did I objectify her? Is it the media? Is it in my male genes to be visually, physically, psychologically stimulated? You are free to narrow it down or reduce it to whatever you see fit. All I can say is, if a scantily clad Scar Jo willingly appears on the cover of Esquire as the "sexiest woman alive" and insists that she should not be "objectified" but only admired for her persona and IQ, my advise to her would be to instead appear on the Mensa magazine with her insights on Einstein's relativity.

On Gender - this is unnecessarily complicated and politicized. Sex assignment happens at birth. Usually a physician attests to the sex of the person born. If, for whatever reasons, the person chooses to identify with a sex that differs from their assigned sex, I see no harm, no foul. But this cannot / doesn't take away from the fact that the person was born with a definitive sex with no attached ambiguity. In some cases, sex determination can/does happen even before birth.

On feminism - I would support equal rights for all. Top down and inside out. Whichever sex is discriminated, whichever race is discriminated, whichever ethnic, religious minority is discriminated, whichever caste, creed is discriminated...efforts should be made to fight that discrimination by one and all and not just by those that are in that bucket. Balancing acts that shower special considerations on those perceived discriminated in order to "fix the past" may quickly fall into the trap of "two wrongs make a right".

I apologize for the rickety header. You can always blame my 'cerebral hemispheres 'for not coming up with something apt. :p

I don't associate feminism with, as you put forth 'fix the past' medium. IMO feminism is all about gender equality.

But unlike me ,some people who claim themselves as feminist often forget the very crux of the concept.

Any form of extreme opinions cannot be acknowledged as a branch of feminism.

Now ,about special privileges

Those who are advocating such prejudiced and special considerations in name of feminism are hypocrites.

They just need a fancy name to attract delusional masses .The herd mentality is annoying at times!

Now moving over to "sexualization"

It's a grey area,IMO

I fail to confine it in right or wrong boxes.

But I guess objectification becomes a problem when it take form of lewd tags, obscene comments and vulgarity.

I m sure we all are rational beings and can easily draw a line between vulgarity and healthy objectification.

Edited by lizzy84 - 7 years ago

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lizzy84

@lizzy84

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades
@Angel
I wanted to clarify, I did not expect you to answer all the questions. They were just an example to show how any social issue can get complex or murky.

The goal of feminism is equality. Equality for all humans irrespective of what organs they were born with. Equality for all humans irrespective of what social construct of gender they identify with.

All we can do is call out feminists if they act in a manner which treats a group of people unequally.

@bold.

They simply cannot associate with the term feminist if they resort to such practices.

I think that will make feminism more real and attainable without any comments like

"Hey ! Feminist = Man hater "

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Angel-likeDevil

@Angel-likeDevil

IF-Stunnerz

+ 2

Posted: 7 years ago

I'd like to butt in and add that, finding someone sexy has nothing to do with looks all the time ☺️

A man fully dressed with a 'handsome-ness' (that is hard to describe) can be more sexy than a shirtless man. A man who is studying, like a nerdy scientist, or a chef etc... who have no visible intention to appear sexy, but end up looking appealing... We objectify them too upto an extent.. There is a sensualist in everyone(well, there could be exceptions with varying degrees, nothing's absolute) , it is just natural..

Physical aspect of a person is as natural as their character, personality, other intangible aspects of life.. Every aspect of human has a beauty - and that cannot be restricted, or controlled to the one looking at them.. infact you rarely can predict what is it about the person that may appeal to you, could be something as simple as their gait or just a look they have about them - should I say, 'aura/vibes'? it can drive you crazily curious about them..

This applies to both showbiz and real world.

Like Lizzy rightly pointed out, sexualization in mentality is alright - because you cannot really control the mind, it swings in all sorts of ways, that is the fluidity of the mind, sometimes we do objectify a person in our head, it happens like a flash - you cannot help but find yourself admiring their looks, but in the end, it is how you check your mind and what you put out before the world that matters...

Admiring someone is no problem - it is all about what and how you put out, what you spread to others as a responsible social being.. Drawing that line may be difficult, but we can easily see when a derogatory comment is being made..

Kinda off-topic, but after thinking on this issue, I feel it all has mostly to do with deeper issues of the mind than anything else... Men or women that make derogatory comments, it seems, are just projecting their inner psyche. It is sad, but I feel there's no answer for this issue until people themselves change from within... the most this discussions or movements can do is spread awareness and shut them up for fear of being called out upon, that helps a lot though.

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

IF-Stunnerz

+ 6

Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: lizzy84
Don't you think clothes should not be the only criteria for being associated with feminism?

Of course not. Clothes are just one small part of feminism.

There is so much more. Right to education. Right to work. Fairness and equality in the workplace. Right to choose between or balance career/family. And a whole lot more that I cannot possibly think of and express at once.

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

IF-Stunnerz

+ 6

Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: lizzy84

@bold.
They simply cannot associate with the term feminist if they resort to such practices.
I think that will make feminism more real and attainable without any comments like

"Hey ! Feminist = Man hater "
:/

Its tough. Sometimes you cannot control what people identify as.

Some people claim to be Christian and beat a transgender person to death. Some people claim to be Muslim but blow things up.

Similarly some people claim to be feminist and discriminate against men. You cannot stop them. But you can step up to the plate and set the right example. It can be an uphill battle. But we feminism is important and has to be reclaimed to mean equality - so that more people can stand by it.

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@K.Universe.

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: lizzy84

I don't associate feminism with, as you put forth 'fix the past' medium. IMO feminism is all about gender equality.
But unlike me ,some people who claim themselves as feminist often forget the very crux of the concept.
Any form of extreme opinions cannot be acknowledged as a branch of feminism.

Now ,about special privileges
Those who are advocating such prejudiced and special considerations in name of feminism are hypocrites.
They just need a fancy name to attract delusional masses .The herd mentality is annoying at times!

We can't oppress a group for decades, centuries or in some cases for millenniums and then one day maybe proffer an apology before declaring equality for all. The ones oppressed cannot catch up that fast. No doubt, there is a balancing act involved but I am afraid that sometimes without committing two wrongs, a situation cannot be righted. I was only saying that we just have to be wary of the pitfalls of such an approach.

Over the years, feminists have done a LOT for women all over the world and we shouldn't take away anything from them. There is also so much more that needs to be done especially when it comes to violence against women. I don't know what their priorities are and I don't know if "they" are one entity. It's possible it's splintered so some kind of a unity is required where "they" can speak with one voice.

At this point, I would like to know in which direction you would like this thread to head :)

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Debate on Feminism ~ Pay-gap . - Page 3

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