Who was to blame? Kunti, or others as well?

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Who do you think was responsible for Karna's lifelong pain?

Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 9 years ago

Okay, as they showed partially accurate accounts of Karna's encounters w/ Krishna & Kunti this week, it begs the age old question of who was responsible for Karna having to live the life of a sutaputra.

As some had previously claimed, it's true that Karna didn't live a downtrodden life. He was king of Anga, and lived pretty well, be it in Anga, or in Hastinapur whenever he was w/ Dury plotting against the Pandavas. OTOH, status wise, he remained a suta (which is a lower sub-caste of Kshatriyas, not Shudras) and all his wives were sutas as well. Forget Draupadi, there were no princesses that he ever married, contrary to what some novels have made up.

So when Kunti approached him, there were understandably recriminations about her ignoring him all those years, and only approaching him when she wanted a surefire victory for her other sons. Karna understandably was resentful at her, and questioned her decisions. So who was to blame here - Kunti, or others?

Yeah, Kunti was a kid when she had Karna, and floated him down a river. She had a spy network to report to her on his whereabouts. Was that to ensure that he remained safe, or was that to ensure that she - and her other 5 sons - did? That somewhat flies in the face of her only recognizing him at the rangbhoomi, if she had her personal spy network keeping tabs on him all the time. So why did she not try to bring him over much earlier, if that's what she really wanted?

It's not like she'd have had to expose herself to a scandal, if it was done discreetly enough. As it is, she had many years where she had private moments w/ the Pandavas - from Lakshagriha on onwards, and the 36 years that the Pandavas ruled Indraprastha, when she lived w/ them, (not Dhritarashtra, as some twisted serials like to show nowadays). There were any number of times she could have told Yudhistir what happened. The Pandavas wouldn't have judged her - since she was their mother, and steps could have been taken to reconcile Karna to them. Note that this would have had to happen b4 Karna's insult of Draupadi, as that was the point of no return.

Some have asked whether Surya or Durvasa should have borne any responsibility given that Kunti was given these boons as a child. Durvasa probably gave her the boon foreseeing the trouble that Pandu would have, and to enable her to fulfill her marital duties to him, which she & Madri actually did when it came to it. He wasn't gonna stick around to tell her, 'No, this is real, don't try it until you're married and your husband is cursed w/ dying if he tries to consummate you'. Suryadev's responsibility, I've already outlined above.

Few have faulted Kunti for floating Karna down a river, although some have questioned her humanity in doing so. Real issue had been her being quiet about it when Karna was not a threat, and stepping up only when he looked poised to join the Kauravas in war. Which does raise the question about whether she cared about Karna at all, and to what extent, if she indeed did?

Finally, people who fault Krishna for this - Krishna was not a driving factor here. This secret was Kunti's, and it was up to her to disclose it. This secret was known by Krishna, Vyasa and Narad, and the latter 2 included Bheeshma into it (although the timeline on the last is unclear). Now it's a fair question on whether either Bheeshma or Krishna should have persuaded Kunti to come clean a lot sooner, but even if they should, do they take some of the blame away from Kunti?

So who do you think was to blame for Karna's predicament? Kunti alone, or is it fair to spread it around?

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FlauntPesimism

@FlauntPessimism

Viewbie

+ 9

Posted: 9 years ago

I think it was out an out Kunti's fault. Not that she didn't reveal this to the world, but the fact that she revealed this to Karna just before the war

I have not blamed Kunti for anything else, being a Suta is anyday much better than being an illegitimate child (Sorry but this is the truth), Niyog was allowed but an unwed mother was strictly a no no and had she actually gone to the world and said that this is Suryadev's child, would anyone actually believe? She was not Mother Marry who had the blessings of God with her

And what loss did Karna actually have? He got a foster mother who loved him more than (or equal to) her own children, He got a friend who trusted on Karna more than what he did on himself, he got wives, sons who fought for him. He might have not married any princess (although even this is not mentioned anywhere just as it is not mentioned that he married any princess) but seriously guys is marrying a princess the only measure of being happy, he was made a king, in fact despite being Kshatriyas and royal born, Pandavas spent more than 25 years of their lives in forest (born, brought up, post Varnavrat and of course Vanavas cumulative it will definitely exceed 25 years) The only he things he lacked in his life was Draupadi and Divyastra, if we go by this the Pandavas actually lacked much more, they didn't get royal treatment despite being princes (not going with whether they were the rightful owners of the throne or not, I feel that to be a matter of dispute). No one in this world get everything and this guy had the things he missed as well, sorry to Karna fans but he being deprived or something is just like playing a victim card

How ever if you ask, I feel the society is the other thing to be blamed,

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Justitia

@Justitia

Rocker

Posted: 9 years ago

Dunno how accurate it is but I have read somewhere that when it comes to niyog, the child borne through such a union is ENTIRELY the mother's responsibility. Which is why Vyasa never really figured into the picture when it came to the upbringing of Dhritarashtra, Pandu & Vidur. I know DPV are nowhere connected to this but I'm just giving an example since Karna's birth wasn't the first instance of niyog in the Mahabharat. And it certainly wasn't the last.

This is exactly why the Pandavas became Kunti's (& Madri's) responsibility, first and foremost (even before Pandu). Of course, due to Kunti & Madri themselves belongng to royal families and being married to Pandu (who himself belonged to a royal family), YBANS were regarded as royals even after Pandu's passing - despite Pandu NOT being their biological father.

Hence using this logic, Suryadev CANNOT be blamed for not looking out for Karna. After all, did Dharma, Vayudev, Indra, and the Ashwinis ever sing bedtime lullabies for the kid Pandavas after Pandu's demise?

Having said all that, when Bhim was poisoned, who was the one who looked out for him?

And THAT is where I think Karna got the short shrift. Even if you regard Karna to be ENTIRELY Kunti's responsibility (hence blame her for his predicament), in that case, why didn't the very same Kunti connections ever come to Karna's aid? After all, if Aryaka & Vasuki could help protect Bhim - who had the same biological mother as Karna...

Not saying, Karna's birth status should've been revealed to him right at the outset, but still...a little bit more concern. Also, if Indra could go to the extent that he did for Arjun...in such a situation, Karna deffo got short changed by Surya!

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ltelidevara

@ltelidevara

Sparkler

+ 8

Posted: 9 years ago

I too, from affection, always regard him as (my) father. O Madhava, that Adhiratha, O Janardana, from paternal affection caused all the rites of infancy to be performed on my person, according to the rules prescribed in the scriptures. It is that Adhiratha, again, who caused the name Vasusena to be bestowed upon me by the Brahmanas. When also I attained to youth, I married wives according to his selections. Through them have been born my sons and grandsons, O Janardana. My heart also, O Krishna, and all the bonds of affection and love, are fixed on them. From joy or fear. O Govinda. I cannot venture to destroy those bonds." Karna's marriages were done as per Adirath's selection.Not in another way.There are many fictions and folktales making him the husband of vrishali,Supriya Padmavathi Etc. The Epic never mentioned any names of his wives.As Adhiratha selected his wives they will obviously be from their own caste. And another point to be noted Karna mentions he had sons and grandsons.So Vrishasen being his Eldest son must have been married and had children before the war commenced. But SIDT is showing Vrishasen on par with Abhimanyu in age which is wrong. Vrishasen by all means is elder and. a father also.But who cares to know what is there in the Epic? SIDT won't at any cost . Shipreeta,The Epic clearly mentioned Karna's marriages done by Adhirath's selections.So that's it.

Edited by ltelidevara - 9 years ago

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 9 years ago

shipreeta, I partially agree w/ you that the Pandavas suffered a lot more physically. But emotionally, Karna did undergo a lot - particularly after he found out who he really was. In those days, who one married was also a status symbol, which is why you had kings & princes - including Krishna's own son Samba - disrupting swayamvaras and abducting princesses to marry them. It wasn't like today where one marries just to get loved & supported.

Also, the concept of 'illegitimacy' only came up if a woman who was single lifelong had a baby out of wedlock. It didn't apply if she later married - since in that situation, her child too would get her husband as his/her father. That's the argument Krishna made to Karna - that he'd then be Pandu's eldest son. Now, there is a legitimate argument on whether Karna would have trumped Yudhisthir as king, since the Pandavas were niyoga sons of Pandu - born of his wives through other male agents - the devas - while Karna was a kanina son, and in the hierarchy that they had as far as succession rules went, niyoga sons trumped kanina sons. But even with that, it would still have been legitimate for Karna to marry other princesses - if not Draupadi - and he wouldn't have had to go to Parashurama & lie to him about his caste, and he wouldn't have been jealous of Arjun, just like Bhima or the other Pandavas weren't.

lexy, Vyasa was completely illegitimate, but he was adopted by his real father Parashara and raised: Satyavati let go of any ownership of him. As far as Dhritarashtra & Pandu went, Vyasa played the same role in their births as the devas did for the Pandavas. He had no claim to them - they inherited the lineage of Vichitravirya, Santanu, et al.

In the EDT thread, I did mention how I don't blame Suryadev for Karna, since the role that the deva fathers had was to take their kids after their deaths. Karna joined Surya, Bhima joined Pavan, Nakul & Sahadev joined the Ashwin twins. Yudhi & Arjun were different in that they got eternal salvation w/ Vishnu himself

About Aryaka, their role only came into play b'cos Bhima was in their realm, so they considered it their duty to save him for the sake of their grand-daughter. Otherwise, they never intervened in support of the Pandavas. Also, Bhima was being threatened by Duryodhan, who wasn't Kunti's son, but in case of Karna, his rivalry was w/ Kunti's sons only, so they'd either have had to take the Pandava side, or stay neutral. Also, they may not have known Karna's secret any more than others: remember, the only 4 people who knew it were Kunti herself, Vyasa, Narada & Krishna. And later, Bheeshma, who heard it from Vyasa & Narada.

One thing I don't like about the epic - it seems to undermine the idea of adoption. Throughout history, in the epics themselves, there had been cases of sons being adopted - an example being Shakuntala-nandan Bharat, who adopted someone else to make him king, since he had killed off his own sons. So Karna was very much Adhirath & Radha's son, and he himself endorsed that. So for Kunti to after the war ask the Pandavas to do his last rites was more self-serving than doing anything for him. Karna's last rites should have been done by any survivor from Adirath's family, and for people who had none, then their kings would have stepped in for their benefit

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FlauntPesimism

@FlauntPessimism

Viewbie

+ 9

Posted: 9 years ago

I agree to Vrish, specially on the part of last rites, considering one of the son's of Karna was alive after the war (actually probably 3 when he died), hence it was his sons' right to perform the last rites, I in fact think she took their rights.

I agree that had Kunti accepted Karna, he would have been a son of Pandu despite being Kaneen, but it was only if she got married, an unwed mother would have found it difficult to get married as well

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ltelidevara

@ltelidevara

Sparkler

+ 8

Posted: 9 years ago

Shiprita, Sorry for intruding again.Kunti should not be blamed she did a right thing because Karna had no survivors left as per the Epic. Vrishaketu exists in Jaimini Mahabharata. Not in Vyasa's.You can check Stri Parva.

Edited by ltelidevara - 9 years ago

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KaYuFan

@KaYuFan

Beginner

Posted: 9 years ago

I am a frequent lurker on IndiaForums. But I had to respond to this post.

What happened between Kunti and Surya was not Niyoga. The rules of niyoga are stated in Satyarth Prakash. Presumably Surya knew them, even if Kunti didn't.

http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/download/satyarth_prakash_eng.pdf

Jus as marriage is allowed only in the case of a bachelor and a maid, likewise only a widow and a widower can enter into the relation of Niyoga, but never a bachelor and a maid.

(page 131/132 of the book, page 86/87 of the pdf)

Moreover, it's Surya who asks Kunti to abandon the child.

And at the command of Surya

p. 272

himself, she abandoned me as soon as I was born.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05141.htm

Legally and ethically, Surya was much more responsible for Karna than Kunti. Kunti was a child. Surya was an adult. Kunti had to face society. Surya didn't.

Even if all the ethical argument is dismissed, Surya had to have known the laws of Niyog.

EDIT - what lifelong pain? I thought he had a happy life. His life was very good, unless being lower-caste is considered bad.

The Suta, Adhiratha, as soon as he beheld me, took me to his home, and from her affection for me, Radha's breasts were filled with milk that very day, and she, O Madhava, cleansed my urine and evacuations. How can one like us, conversant with duties and ever engaged in listening to scriptures deprive her of her Pinda? So also Adhiratha of the Suta class regardeth me as a son, and I too, from affection, always regard him as (my) father. O Madhava, that Adhiratha, O Janardana, from paternal affection caused all the rites of infancy to be performed on my person, according to the rules prescribed in the scriptures. It is that Adhiratha, again, who caused the name Vasusena to be bestowed upon me by the Brahmanas. When also I attained to youth, I married wives according to his selections. Through them have been born my sons and grandsons, O Janardana. My heart also, O Krishna, and all the bonds of affection and love, are fixed on them. From joy or fear. O Govinda. I cannot venture to destroy those bonds even for the sake of the whole earth or heaps of gold. In consequence also of my connection with Duryodhana of Dhritarashtra's race, I have, O Krishna, enjoyed sovereignty for thirteen years, without a thorn on my side. I have performed many sacrifices, always however in connection with persons of the Suta tribe. All my family rites and marriage rites have been performed with the Sutas.

Edited by KaYuFan - 9 years ago

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ltelidevara

@ltelidevara

Sparkler

+ 8

Posted: 9 years ago

EDIT - what lifelong pain? I thought he had a happy life. His life was very good, unless being lower-caste is considered bad. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bang on.Agree on that and also on that.Surya has more responsibility than Kunti. He could have taken him and returned afterwards like Ganga nourished Devvrat and brought back to Santanu.I am sure Pandu is magnanimous enough and accept Kunti's child as Surya's grace.

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Chiillii

@Chiillii

Navigator

+ 2

Posted: 9 years ago

#10

Responsibility was surya's alone because Kunti was unmarried.

The responsibility of the child was with father always. Rules of a patriarchal society. Pls read bhisma's discourse on the bed of arrows to Yudhi. "The woman is the land on which the man plants his seed". The seed does not belong to the land but to the man who showed his seed". Yes these words are very regressive but that was the norm then.

Rules of niyog were very strict. Niyog can be only performed by a married woman only with the express permission of her husband if he is not able to have a child himself or by husband's family if he dies before having a child. The purpose of niyog is only to have a child because a childless person will not get a place amongst his departed ancestors for not being able to continue the family line.

In niyog husband or husband's family accepts the child and responsibility of raising it and sharing family inheritance with the child. So devas who fathered pandavas did not abandon their children. Pandu asked them a favor to be a surrogate and father children whose responsibility he and his family will take...

What happened between surya and Kunti was similar to what happened with parashar and Satyawati. Since Satyawati was maiden her kanina son was responsibility of parashar who took him with him.

Also Kunti did not call surya with an intention of having a child. A young girl flush with youth gets a boon and wants to try it out of curiosity. When she realizes her mistake she apologizes to surya and tries to back out.

Surya refuses and convinces her she will not be blamed and when the child is born He asks her to abandon the child

and that is why he gives Kavach and Kundal as protection to Karna in lieu of his name that he shud have rightly given him

Literally saying "he has my protection through this kavach and Kundal". It will keep him safe

So Kunti did not abandon Karna Surya did. She did not have an choice in the matter...women did not have that choice in that era

Edited by Adishakti - 9 years ago