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AnuMP

@AnuMP

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Posted: 10 years ago

#31

Originally posted by: riti4u

Then what would you call Kunti giving birth to others ,their also father was not pandu .. Just out of curiousity i asked... Actually in modern day if a woman is under such situation , if it is a mutual consent , then ofcourse blame is on both father and mother and if it is rape then I think our Court does allow abortion in such cases if not fatal to mother's health rather than having child .In case if mother goes ahead and have child, she somewhats take responsibility of having child. As far as father is concerned, he should be in jail serving sentence in that case not taking care of child as per me...since child does deserve better ..

On pretext of Mahabharat, we can't compare it to second case here since Kunti if evoked that mantra then it did have her consent..she was curious on her own...there was no forceful sex .

Sorry if i got more serious here...but to me that situation looks more like mutual consent ..that is first case i depicted ..

Big difference between underage CHILD or TEEN and grown woman.

STATUTORY rape is the term for situations like this. Force need not be involved. At that age, teens are not capable of INFORMED consent regardless of what she may have said verbally.

It is a crime now and would have been then as well (re: SHishupal vadh when Krishna talks about rape of AKrura's wife)

AMrita / Riti A grown woman having sex outside marriage (Niyog) is not a crime these days

Edited by AnuMP - 10 years ago

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Nandita

@Nandita_Siddian

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#32

Do not know about the others...but I atleast can not sympatise kunti...i always admire draupadi and gandhari over kunti...

1.draupadi was an sharp tounged woman and actually did not had any of her own fault...she always victimised by the circumstanse...she had five powerful husband..but noone helped her at that crucial period of her life..she loved arjuna most but arjuna always preferred subhadra over her...she lost her all the sons...she was patrani of pandavas..so as per the rules her grandsons should get the throne after yudhisthir...but it goes to Parikshit ...so I think did not she did not any grandsons and all her sons were killed at young age.

2.gandhari...she was not at a fault to poison duryadhan..I do not think at that period of time women get that much power that they should control her sons in present of her hubby...and vikarna was her son who stood for draupadi in dice game...if Krishna and pandava wanted they can save vikarna for his huminity..but they did not do that...so as a result gandhari lost all her children.

But kunti was one woman..if she wanted she could change many things..ok she abundon karna only to save her own respect...but when she recognise karna in rangbhoomi atleast then also she needed to go to karna and openup his identity...i strongly feel that in that case also karna stopped duryadhan from many of his misdeed...and if he did not do this then I also blamed him for his wickedness...and if kunti really felt that he was a wicked soul then how suddenly she launched herself in front of him her bhiksha Ki jholi just before the war?????sorry I can not feel that kunti was so much innoscent. 🤢 she may be a great Mata of pandavas...but she came as a curse for karna.

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Nandita

@Nandita_Siddian

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#33

Originally posted by: KURT15

On one hand, she cried for him...sent spies for him...felt happy for him...even felt guilty after his death...

The spy part is only imagination... not mentioned in epic... yes, she felt happy when he first appeared and was made a king, that is only natural, and the guilt wouldn't be there unless she herself believed she wronged him and deliberately too.. 

And on the other hand, she called him a 'wicked soul'...Either it's an interpolation or maybe she said at a moment's rage...thinking about Karna supporting Duryodhan in everything against her sons...

The wicked soul could be a moment's rage, but she has never before gone to him or attempted to correct him or tell him the truth... those are not the actions of a mother... to her he and duryodhan were the same... she had a way of weakening him, so she chose to do it

Ofc, these are all individual opinions... none of us have the right to judge any of these ppl, 'coz we have not lived their lives, or been in such situations...

Agreed.. 😊

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AnuMP

@AnuMP

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#34

Originally posted by: riti4u

Epic is open to interpretations 😊 and thus giving you and me open spaces to have different perspectives of characters. Like you said its poetry having symbolical references at time that doesnt mean they are accurate.. After you mentioned Surya asking kunti to float.. I consulted some of my learned friends.. coz my knowledge in these citations thing is very less... so yes Karna did say what you are saying but during description of kunti's act it is not mentioned in that way.. Its debatable how karna knew ..🤔 since he was toddler.. but we can give kunti a benefit of doubt in that case...

Honestly i dont hate kunti or judge her due to one of her acts .. I do have soft corner for her.. but you have to believe that she got fairer deal out of all mothers in the epic.. she managed to save all her 5.. whether she wanted to save 6th one or not.. thats another debate... She did repent... She did have a guilt and for probably that one line in epic that mentions that, i can excuse her for her actions to karna..

Amrita , Mahabharat is special because no character in the epic apart from Lord Krishna is purely innocent or faultless... So every character had a flaw or weakness..that makes them more real and understandable.. so there is no point in hating any of them...coz they represent us in our weak moments and we as humans are bound to make mistakes and then later repent n redeem.. They tell us which path to take and which not to...

@ Bold What would you call a mass murder like Khandava prastha then? Because it was mass murder.

AND, in KMG, there was no Subhadra driving the chariot or them falling in love. Subhi was completely unaware and Arjun hadn't said a word. KRISHNA says to Arjun 'do you like her? Then kidnap her?'

I am aware of Karnalis' feelings about Panchali. Other than the Suthaputhra comment (if I want to say I will only marry the Prince of England, it is my right to do so, regardless of the hurt others may feel) and the NON-EXISTENT ANdhe Ka Putr, I am curious to see what faults or mistakes of Panchali you can come up with?

Indrajeet Bahndyopadyay's article said that it almost looks like Vyasa picked Panchali as his HERO and composed JAYA (whichj means victory but also used as a term for WIFE) around HER.

Edited by AnuMP - 10 years ago

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GEETHA KRISHNAN

@KURT15

Inactive

Posted: 10 years ago

#35

AND, in KMG, there was no Subhadra driving the chariot or them falling in love. Subhi was completely unaware and Arjun hadn't said a word. KRISHNA says to Arjun 'do you like her? Then kidnap her?'

I beg to disagree.
"As soon as Arjuna beheld her he was possessed by the god of desire. Then, O Bharata, that tiger among men, Krishna, observing Partha contemplate her with absorbed attention, said with a smile, 'How is this? Can the heart of one that rangeth the woods be agitated by the god of desire? This is my sister, O Partha, and the uterine sister of Sarana. Blest be thou, her name is Bhadra and she is the favourite daughter of my father. Tell me if thy heart is fixed upon her, for I shall then speak to my father myself.'

"Arjuna answered, 'She is Vasudeva's daughter and Vasudeva's (Krishna) sister; endued with so much beauty, whom can she not fascinate? If this thy sister, this maid of the Vrishni race, becometh my wife, truly may I win prosperity in everything. Tell me, O Janardana, by what means I may obtain her. To get her I will achieve anything that is achievable by man.'"

It does look as if Arjuna said something. But ofc, I agree that Krishna did ask Arjuna to kidnap her since Subhadra's heart was unknown.

But to say Krishna engineered the marriage without consent of either party is a fiction

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AnuMP

@AnuMP

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#36

Re: Niyog and rape

A CHILD cannot consent. Period. No matter if YES comes out of her mouth several thousand times. The grown up in the situation has the responsibility, ESPECIALLY if he has divine powers. Why would we not hold God to a higher standard or at least the same standard?

Kunti cannot be blamed for or even considered an equal participant in the event.

I don't blame her for giving him up.

I don't blame her for not acknowledging him either. His life was hardly the tragedy SidT is making it out to be. He had a happy home, loving wives etc etc. Yes his guru refused him the ultimate weapon, I blame the GURU for that. Education should not be based on caste😲, even if Karna had been revealed to be a Kshatriya by then.

I don't blame her for Rangabhoomi or subsequent events either. He made friends with kings. Was still loved at home and had a kingdom to himself.

I understand why she went to Karna before war. She tried to avoid having her kids kill each other even if she had no great love for Karna. But I can understand why some blame her for that.

I DO blame her for revealing it after war. What was the necessity of heaping guilt on her other children? She should have darned well lived with her own guilt!

Tragedy of Karna's life is that of lost possibilities.,on a personal level for him, because he was actually of a higher caste. Which is kind of sickening to me, because say, an actual person of lower caste going through this, would not have been an equal or greater tragedy?. Otherwise the only tragedy was that he died at the hands of his brother and that he went to his death knowing it and not being able to give back as good as he got.

The rest of his life seems to have been fairly happy

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AnuMP

@AnuMP

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#37

Originally posted by: KURT15
AND, in KMG, there was no Subhadra driving the chariot or them falling in love. Subhi was completely unaware and Arjun hadn't said a word. KRISHNA says to Arjun 'do you like her? Then kidnap her?'

I beg to disagree.
"As soon as Arjuna beheld her he was possessed by the god of desire. Then, O Bharata, that tiger among men, Krishna, observing Partha contemplate her with absorbed attention, said with a smile, 'How is this? Can the heart of one that rangeth the woods be agitated by the god of desire? This is my sister, O Partha, and the uterine sister of Sarana. Blest be thou, her name is Bhadra and she is the favourite daughter of my father. Tell me if thy heart is fixed upon her, for I shall then speak to my father myself.'
"Arjuna answered, 'She is Vasudeva's daughter and Vasudeva's (Krishna) sister; endued with so much beauty, whom can she not fascinate? If this thy sister, this maid of the Vrishni race, becometh my wife, truly may I win prosperity in everything. Tell me, O Janardana, by what means I may obtain her. To get her I will achieve anything that is achievable by man.'"
It does look as if Arjuna said something. But ofc, I agree that Krishna did ask Arjuna to kidnap her since Subhadra's heart was unknown.
But to say Krishna engineered the marriage without consent of either party is a fiction

Not consent of EITHER party. But Arjun hadn't said a word BEFORE Krishna prompted him.

and then this -

O Partha, as we do not know this girl's temper and disposition. In the case of Kshatriyas that are brave, a forcible abduction for purposes of marriage is applauded, as the learned have said. Therefore O Arjuna, carry away this my beautiful sister by force, for who knows what she may do at a self-choice.'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01222.htm

Granted, it was nearly as big a crime as the Khandavprastha genocide, but this was his own sister

Edited by AnuMP - 10 years ago

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GEETHA KRISHNAN

@KURT15

Inactive

Posted: 10 years ago

#38

Originally posted by: ...Diala...
Seriously Ritima.. there is nothing better then KaKu 😳😳😳 ... hottest topic for years... Go to hell KaJu KaLi KaDu 😆

Yes, Dy... nothing can perk u up like a good dose of KaKu in the morning and evening!! 😆

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Nandita

@Nandita_Siddian

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#39

The main aim to write the karna's character was to show that how a racism and social negligence can made a good human resource to an wasted one...he was no doubt a wonderful human resource who can be used for a good cause...but no body was interested to take him..so off course he went to a wrong hand and used in a wrong manner...no body can deny that he was neglected by the society..and till now racism and social negligence are present in our society which are giving birth to many big criminals
.so just underlining his fault and nullifying the fault of the society to him is utterly rediculous..
And one thing India is always a diversified country..here different group of ppl had different type of culture...and at that point of time aryavat was not operated under a single rule...so keechak was suta still he was commander of king Virat does not justify the truth that there was same rule in hastinapore also.

Edited by Nandita_Siddian - 10 years ago

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riti4u

@riti4u

Stunner

+ 7

Posted: 10 years ago

#40

@Anu- I am not that versed with incidents to really blame Krishna for the faults.. I have thought of him as being kind of central character driving the story ..

About Draupadi, well i think you have prejudice on Karnalis view of her.. it depends on person to person. I like her a lot but yes I like Karna more 😳 that doesnt make me have any bias about her..As far as her fault is concerned, what happened to her was wrong... but then she wanted war isnt it ? I am not sure if revenge is positive feeling... yes having justice met is... but would you call it justice in which so many people lost their lives for no fault of their own... I can understand her reason for hatred towards kauravas and this seemed justice to her.. but was this justice? If yes, then why did she loose her own sons.. was that justice to her..? I don't think it is even to her...

I think we have completely made my fun post into serious debate discussion...😆

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