How To Read A Scale w/o Rocking It - Page 2

deshkar and bhupali too can be compared in a similar way? this is a question
they have the same sa re ga pa dha...

...thumka (matlab, apunki ishtyle ka bump 😳 )

thumka, jhumka , jhatka
whatever before this gets lost in the pile

Bhaktaji,i wanted 2 know what r the form of writings in music in western style?Like '&' symbolises what and some other letters r also there,r they Do re mi fa,etc written in Latin? or what.I know western scale system but music notations i'm not acquainted,can u plz clear my doubt?😊

Originally posted by: kishore_bhakta

There are three ways to express a scale:

METHOD ONE: SOLFEGE

That is to say: use Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, Pa, Dha, and Ni along w/ forms.

In Western: they use Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, and Ti.

*** This is important that C, D, E, F#, etc. etc. notation is NOT comparable with Sa Re Ga Ma Pa..." ***

METHOD TWO: FREQUENCY

In Western: we say C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, along with sharpened versions (#) or flattened versions (b).

In Indian music: after the British introduced Western music, the notes are Safed Ek, Kali Ek, Safed Do, Kali Do, Safed Tin, Safed Char, Kali Tin, Safed Panch, Kali Char, Safed Cheh, Kali Panch, Safed Saat.

These notes are nothing more than frequency. They do NOT imply origin or position of notes in a scale. They imply the frequency in Hertz. (Letters meant to represent pitch or sound wave frequency).

METHOD THREE: STEPS

The steps method is based on see how far two consecutives notes are apart.

In Western music, we express these as steps. One half-step is one semi-tone apart, while a whole-step is two semi-tones apart. In Indian music, Sa and komal re are HALF STEP, while Sa and shuddha Re are WHOLE-STEP. Be careful, because Ga and Tivra Ma are WHOLE STEPS, and komal ga and shudhda ma are WHOLE STEPS.

Looking at Bilawal; let's see the ways we can represent it:

Step 1: S R G m P D N S'

Step 2: in the key of C: C D E F G A B C'

Step 3: (Sa)Whole-(Re)Whole-(Ga)Whole-(Ma)Half-(Pa)Whole-(Dha)Whole- (Ni)Whole- (Sa)Half

Using the Bilawal scale, it is believed that by moving the Sa around in the other six notes, seven shuddha ragas formed.

THe first shuddha raga is Bilawal, as it is.

The second shuddha raga is by placing the S on the place of R.

S R G m P D N S'

X S R g m P D n S'

Based on the steps method, we see that the FIRST instance of komal ga and komal ni are found. This shuddha raga is Kafi.

THe third shuddha raga is by placing S on the place of G.

S R G m P D N S'

X X S r g m P d n S'

This is Bhairavi. FIRST instance of komal re and komal dha.

Fourth is by placing Sa on Ma.

S R G m P D N S'

X X X S R G M P D N S'

This is Kalyana That (Raga Yaman). First instace of tivra Ma.

Fifth is by placing Sa on Pa

S R G m P D N S'

X X X X S R G m P D n S'

This is Raga Jhinjhoti of the Khamaja That

Sixth is by placing Sa on Dha

S R G m P D N S'

X X X X X S R g m P d n S'

Asavari That!

Last is seventh: Placing Sa on Ni.

S R G m P D N S'

X X X X X X S r g m M d n S'

This raga is nonexistant in North Indian music, but it is known as Ragam Rohinipriya in Carnatic music.

Since these seven ragas were derived by the shuddha swars, they are called shuddha ragas. These ragas were believed to be the source of "vikrta swars" (i.e. komal re, komal ga, tivra ma, komal dha, and komal ni.)

That was very nice .Plz post us about differences in Carnatic & Hindustani ragas & if there r similar ones 2.Carnatic have more sargams than Aakar,why is it so?Who started Carnatic actually & how?Did they both came frm Vedas and acqured changes eventually?Which one was evolved earlier?Do we have history about all of them?

Originally posted by: kishore_bhakta

Mathematically?

Let's do some math. For those who studied probability, you know that in a situation where m number of things can happen n ways, the number of possibilities are m*n.

For seven note ragas:

S*R*G*m*P*D*N

1*2*2*2*1*2*2 =32 possible scales.

Finding the number of five or six note ragas are a bit difficult as you have to eliminate any possibile chromatic forms mathematically and adhere to the rules of the raga at the same time (i.e Re or Ga, ma or Pa, etc.)

Hindustani has many possible ragas if you took the time and listed it out. Some ragas have not been used in Hindustani, yet Carnatic made the claim to them. For instance...

Raga Puriya Dhanasri as we know is: 'N r G M d N S' r' S'; N r' N d P d M G M G r S 'N S. There is a raga that uses komal ni instead of shuddha ni. In Carnatic, this raga is Ragam Namonarayani.

Even if we get so many scales, we must also consider that no two scales sound the same. Raga Darbari Kanada and Raga Kaunsi Kanada are examples of this theory.

Darbari Kanada: S R g m P d n S'; S' d n P m P n g m R S.

Kaunsi Kanada: S R g m - P d n d n S', S' d n d n m P m g R S'

The latter has the strength lying on shuddha ma and sounds like a mellow version of Malkauns. The face of Darbari, although sharing the exact same notes as Kaunsi Kanada, has a differnet look. As they say in Hindi, "raga ka shakal badal gaye."

Originally posted by: ruby_bindas24

That was very nice .Plz post us about differences in Carnatic & Hindustani ragas & if there r similar ones 2.Carnatic have more sargams than Aakar,why is it so?Who started Carnatic actually & how?Did they both came frm Vedas and acqured changes eventually?Which one was evolved earlier?Do we have history about all of them?

The difference between Carnatic and Hindustani ragas are pretty much the chromatic-differences. Also, both systems may have the same NAME ragas, but they may be very different scales. The flow of the ragas from the North and South systems tend to sound very different. If you ever visit musicindiaonline.com, please listen to Raga Marwa and Ragam Hamsanandi. They sound very different even though they use the same notes (S R1 G3 M2 D2 N3) (aka... S r G M D N).

The history of Carnatic music I have briefly explained from the topic "Legacy of Carnatic music."

Wonderful article KBji.
I have a stupid question...how do we identify raga in a song...e.g. mile sur mera tumhara...and laga chunri mein daag both bhairavi..yet so different...
please clarify this to this agyaani..

I shd take lessons from HR....he makes 10-20 raga based songs everyday after one hour riyaz....in one hour.. 😆

so no hope for people like me... 😭

Originally posted by: adwarakanath

Can i answer?😛
Mile Sur Mera Tumhara is in Sindhu Bhairavi. Shuddha Bhairavi uses the base notes of the Bhairavi thaat, whereas Sindhu Bhairavi uses the tivra and the komal notes.
Actually, it is really really tough to recognise the raga for an untrained listener.
I am untrained, and can thus only recognise very few ragas. I always try to recognise, then verify on the internet. I am 90% wrong 😉 .

Good answer about Sindhu Bhairavi! 👏😊

To recognize a song's raga, some things you look for.

1) The notes used. This will greatly narrow your search down.

2) The flow of the raga (how are the notes moving? how are notes weighted amongst the Sa and Pa if it exists?)

3) In light music, vivadis and grace notes are included without a doubt. See the role of vivadis in the song. Are they using too much power?

Here are some songs that are found in different ragas.

Raga Darbari for Jhanaka Jhanaka Tori Baje Payali. The notes used are S R g m P d n S'. The flow of the raga uses a flatter komal ga and komal dha with andolan on both notes. The focus on the raga is purvanga based, though it is not reluctant to explore outside of the purvanga. Phrases like "S' d n P" "m P d n S'" "m P n g m R S" and "R S 'n S S 'd 'n R S."

In a more recent example, there is a song from Devdas (the Shah Rukh Khan / Ismail Darbar one). "Kahe Ched Ched Mohe." First, I want to give credit to ID for using good raga compositions in this track: Ragas based on Yaman Kalyan, Hemanta, Basanta (I can tell this is Ismail Darbar's pet raga. He uses Purvi phrases right in left in every movie he does), Raga Madhuvanti, Patdeep, Todi, and Sindhu Bhairavi.

Anywho, Kahe Ched Ched Mohe's bandish has the notes "S r G M P d N S'." The flow of the raga is very much focused on uttaranga. In fact, except for one line, you will never heard the madhya saptak's Sa! 👍🏼 The raga which occassionally skips over Pa and takes shelter on high Sa is definitely Raga Basant.

I hope this helps!

Quoting KB Saheb
"Anywho, Kahe Ched Ched Mohe's bandish has the notes "S r G M P d N S'." The flow of the raga is very much focused on uttaranga. In fact, except for one line, you will never heard the madhya saptak's Sa! The raga which occassionally skips over Pa and takes shelter on high Sa is definitely Raga Basant. "

Sir,
If Basant skips Pa and goes to higher Sa, why is Pa considered Samwaadi of Basant?
Can you elaborate?
Thanks