Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan II - Page 55

Chatter

To be fair, yep, every episode does have the disclaimer that it is not authentic, but was 'formatted for TV' - whatever that means. Problem is - many people, not all, assume what they see on TV, or in movies, to be the gospel scriptural truth, and then we have weird interpretations of what constitutes or doesn't constitute morality as preached in the shastras.

Actually, I accept that what the TV shows is false, but I was arguing w/ Lalitha above as to whether any of the Ramayans written in Kalyug or even in Dwapar yug deserve to have the aura of authenticity about them, when the original scriptures from Valmiki do exist. I wasn't exactly talking about TV or movies in that discussion, which would be a modern presentation w/ its own twists tossed in, like Indrajit's mutiliation, or Rama and K-L hands freezing on their bows

hmm ok got ur point

Indrajit's cut hand writing a letter to Sulochana as a result of her pativrata power was in Ananda Ramayan. In Valmiki, at the end of the battle, Lakshman put the Indra-astra on his bow, swore the same shapat by Rama that they showed in the serial, and then cut off Indrajit's head. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, there is no mention of Sulochana in Valmiki

Interesting discussion between Chandraketu and Lalitha Janaki.

As Chandraketu said, there is no mention of Sulochana in the Valmiki Ramayan and Kambaramayan. I'm not sure about Ram Charita Manasa.

What is being shown in the serial (in any serial as a matter of fact) is quite a lot different from the Valmiki Ramayan.

For example, I haven't read or heard or seen any version of the Ramayan in which Ravan tries to stop Ram from reaching Lanka as shown in this serial. In the Kamba Ramayanam, there is a separate chapter dedicated for Angad's mission when he went to see Ravan and offer him a last chance to evade war. In that chapter, Angad points out Ravan's faults and every instance he had failed to act honourably - he never did anything against Ram when Ram killed his grandmother (Tadaka), his unlce Subahu, when Ram built a bridge across the ocean he never even thought about stopping him but like a coward snatched away Sita when she was unguarded. Angad asks if after all this Ravan believes that he is a brave warrior. Ravan tries to pull Angad to his side and says "I give you Kishkinda right now. We can be friends. Shouldn't you be fighting against your father's killer?" For that Angad replies "If I accept the kingdom given by you, it is equal to a lion accepting the kingdom from a dog." I am not sure if the same conversation or the likes of it is a part of Valmiki Ramayan. I think in Valmiki Ramayan, it was just mentioned that Angad gave Ravan Ram's mesage and Ravan ordered his soldiers or guards to sieze Angad but Angad defeated them all and returned to Ram.

It was quite an interesting dialogue between Ravan and Angad.

In Valmiki, there was nothing about Angad challenging Ravan's warriors to remove his foot either. I don't know whether it's there in RCM - will have to check later. Valmiki also has nothing about Ravan offering to give Angad the throne of Kishkindha.

Vibs, you once mentioned that in Tamil, while Kamban didn't include the Uttarkand, someone else did. How does his story go - briefly? Does he follow Valmiki, or does he include other things, like K-L battles?

One thing I forgot to ever ask about Kamban - is it like Valmiki, where only a few people know that Rama is Vishnu, or is it like RCM and Adhyatma, where just about everybody knows it?

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

In Valmiki, there was nothing about Angad challenging Ravan's warriors to remove his foot either. I don't know whether it's there in RCM - will have to check later. Valmiki also has nothing about Ravan offering to give Angad the throne of Kishkindha.

Vibs, you once mentioned that in Tamil, while Kamban didn't include the Uttarkand, someone else did. How does his story go - briefly? Does he follow Valmiki, or does he include other things, like K-L battles?

One thing I forgot to ever ask about Kamban - is it like Valmiki, where only a few people know that Rama is Vishnu, or is it like RCM and Adhyatma, where just about everybody knows it?

Uttarkand in Ramayan was written by Ottakoothar. Both Kamban and Ottakoothar were court poets of Rajendra Chola. At a very young age, Kamban was excellent in writing poetry. Even the king was lost in the beauty of his poems that he made Kamban one of his court poets. It was the king who wished that the Ramayan to be written in Tamil after listening to the Valmiki Ramayan. The task was entrusted to Kamban and Ottakoothar. But Ottakoothar considered Kamban his rival and was not pleased when the king gave equal status to both. The two poets started composing separately. Kamban was able to progress well but Ottakoothar was not able to write much. When the king asked about the status of the composition, Ottakoothar said that he was not able to complete much. Kamban recited a verse from the chapter he was writing at that time (Crossing the river Ganga). Each and every poem was praised by everyone there (except Ottakoothar, of course). And Ottakoothar, jealous and angry told Kamban that since, he had written so far, let him finish the whole epic. Kamban agreed saying he will complete the epic with the blessings of Goddess Saraswati. And he did finish the epic by himself. It was then Ottakoothar wrote Uttar Kand. I am not sure what the storyline is - I have been searching for that book for ages but could not find it at all. 😔

The thing with Kambaramayanam is that there are so many comparisons, similies and metaphors that it is difficult to understand if they mean the real thing or if it is an exaggerated comparison. Countless times Kamban mentions that Ram is Lord Vishnu. I'd guess that only few of them really knew about Ram's divinity though everyone considered him a God.

When Kamban was young, a generous and wealthy merchant (some say farmer) by name Sadaiyappa supported him financially. In gratitude Kamban at first mentioned his name once in every 100 poems. But when he was reciting his work to a saint in a temple, the saint suggested that mentioning Sadayappa's name once in every 1000 poems will be sufficient. Kamban agreed saying "I had mentioned his name once every 100 poems thinking that he was one (special and unique) among a hundred people. But as the saint suggests he is a great man among a thousand people. I shall rewrite accordingly." Hence, in the Kambaramayanam, Sadayappa's name is mentioned every 1000 poems.

Kamban named his work as 'Ramavataaram' (Rama - avtaar) but later on the book came to be called Kambaramayanam.

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

Uttarkand in Ramayan was written by Ottakoothar. Both Kamban and Ottakoothar were court poets of Rajendra Chola. At a very young age, Kamban was excellent in writing poetry. Even the king was lost in the beauty of his poems that he made Kamban one of his court poets. It was the king who wished that the Ramayan to be written in Tamil after listening to the Valmiki Ramayan. The task was entrusted to Kamban and Ottakoothar. But Ottakoothar considered Kamban his rival and was not pleased when the king gave equal status to both. The two poets started composing separately. Kamban was able to progress well but Ottakoothar was not able to write much. When the king asked about the status of the composition, Ottakoothar said that he was not able to complete much. Kamban recited a verse from the chapter he was writing at that time (Crossing the river Ganga). Each and every poem was praised by everyone there (except Ottakoothar, of course). And Ottakoothar, jealous and angry told Kamban that since, he had written so far, let him finish the whole epic. Kamban agreed saying he will complete the epic with the blessings of Goddess Saraswati. And he did finish the epic by himself. It was then Ottakoothar wrote Uttar Kand. I am not sure what the storyline is - I have been searching for that book for ages but could not find it at all. 😔

The thing with Kambaramayanam is that there are so many comparisons, similies and metaphors that it is difficult to understand if they mean the real thing or if it is an exaggerated comparison. Countless times Kamban mentions that Ram is Lord Vishnu. I'd guess that only few of them really knew about Ram's divinity though everyone considered him a God.

When Kamban was young, a generous and wealthy merchant (some say farmer) by name Sadaiyappa supported him financially. In gratitude Kamban at first mentioned his name once in every 100 poems. But when he was reciting his work to a saint in a temple, the saint suggested that mentioning Sadayappa's name once in every 1000 poems will be sufficient. Kamban agreed saying "I had mentioned his name once every 100 poems thinking that he was one (special and unique) among a hundred people. But as the saint suggests he is a great man among a thousand people. I shall rewrite accordingly." Hence, in the Kambaramayanam, Sadayappa's name is mentioned every 1000 poems.

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

In Valmiki, there was nothing about Angad challenging Ravan's warriors to remove his foot either. I don't know whether it's there in RCM - will have to check later.

It is there in RCM.

Thanks, Akhl

And thanks, Vibs, for the story of Kamban and Ottakoothar. It would be interesting to see what the storyline was w/ the latter.

Also, are you familiar w/ the versions that had the story of K-L singing near Rama's palace/camp (aside from the yagna itself), which was in last night's episode?

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Also, are you familiar w/ the versions that had the story of K-L singing near Rama's palace/camp (aside from the yagna itself), which was in last night's episode?

From what I can recall, the Adhyatma Ramayan has something like that. Valmiki instructs Lav-Kush to go to Ayodhya and sing the songs of Ramayana. He also told them that if Ram wanted to hear them then they should go and sing for him but that they should not accept any reward.

The boys then roam the streets of Ayodhya singing songs of the Ramayan. Later Ram heard that two boys were singing songs about his life in the city streets and that people everywhere were listening to them. He sent for the boys and asked that they sing at the yagna. Everyone was surprised by the boys' resemblance to Ram, After hearing them sing, Ram ordered Bharat to give the boys thousands of gold coins but they refused and went back to Valmiki's ashram.