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Deepa

@chen2chic

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Posted: 16 years ago

#101

Thanks Ananya & Chandra - for clearing my doubts on the Janak lineage. So, probably Janak adopted him or as you say he was born much later.

In that case, in this serial the couple of boys in the wedding episodes are not Sita's brothers then, just some kids around in the household...

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#102

Originally posted by: Khalrika

Was Dashrath a weak king compared to the others in the Raghukul? I think so but I am waiting for the input from u folks.

Compared to which others? Ikhsvaku? Raghu? Harishchandra? Sagar? Bhagirath? Aja? Rama? Kush? Atithi? Brihadbala?

I wouldn't categorize him as weak, but I disagree with the historical classification of him as 'great'. Not because of his exile of Rama, or his boons to Kaikeyi, but for other reasons:

He was obsessed with having children, and didn't mind ruining the lives of 352 women in the process. Even Kaushalya and Sumitra never really enjoyed marital bliss, as Dasharath was totally partial to Kaikeyi. In fact, I believe that Ravan could have made off with Kaushalya or Sumitra, and Dasharath wouldn't even have noticed.
He was a misogynist, and adapted out his daughter Shanta to Lomapada, instead of letting her enjoy the life of a princess in Ayodhya. Like it would be a black spot for a Raghu emperor to have a daughter, whom he'd have to marry off, and show humility towards her in-laws.
While his love for Rama was perfectly appropriate, he did that while ignoring his other 3 sons (like wanting to crown Rama w/o recalling Bharat & Shatrughan: had he done the latter first, he might have been saved a lot of grief). (Rama, by contrast, saw to it that not only his sons, but his nephews too (at least, those under his rule, since he had nothing to do with crowning Shatrughan's sons) were enthroned)
He treated Manthara better than Kaushalya or Sumitra

So I know it sounds blasphemous, but despite what the various stories say, I find it hard to respect Dasharath for the above 4 reasons.

Edited by Chandraketu - 16 years ago

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Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#103

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Compared to which others? Ikhsvaku? Raghu? Harishchandra? Sagar? Bhagirath? Aka? Rama? Kush? Atithi? Brihadbala?

I wouldn't categorize him as weak, but I disagree with the historical classification of him as 'great'. Not because of his exile of Rama, or his boons to Kaikeyi, but for other reasons:

He was obsessed with having children, and didn't mind ruining the lives of 352 women in the process. Even Kaushalya and Sumitra never really enjoyed marital bliss, as Dasharath was totally partial to Kaikeyi. In fact, I believe that Ravan could have made off with Kaushalya or Sumitra, and Dasharath wouldn't even have noticed. He was a misogynist, and adapted out his daughter Shanta to Lomapada, instead of letting her enjoy the life of a princess in Ayodhya. Like it would be a black spot for a Raghu emperor to have a daughter, whom he'd have to marry off, and show humility towards her in-laws. While his love for Rama was perfectly appropriate, he did that while ignoring his other 3 sons (like wanting to crown Rama w/o recalling Bharat & Shatrughan: had he done the latter first, he might have been saved a lot of grief). (Rama, by contrast, saw to it that all his sons and nephews were enthroned)
He treated Manthara better than Kaushalya or Sumitra

So I know it sounds blasphemous, but despite what the various stories say, I find it hard to respect Dasharath for the above 4 reasons.

Thanks for the spot on reply. I do not like him very much too which is why I asked the question.

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Deepa

@chen2chic

Navigator

Posted: 16 years ago

#104

Originally posted by: Khalrika

Thanks for the spot on reply. I do not like him very much too which is why I asked the question.

Very true........... His main bliss was that he was Rama's father. Otherwise he was just an ordinary king.

And Chandra - I like the way you reply - Ek Maar do Tukdaa..... Most of the points just can not be denied....

Also I had another question, now that we are discussing Dasarath...........

Somewhere I read that for the Aswamedha/Putrakmeshti Yagna, four ladies were to be involved, the chief queen, the favorite queen, the rejected queen and a concubine. Chief - Kaushalya, Fav - Kaikeyee, Rejected - Sumitra?, the other one dont want to get into details.

Also, Kaikeyee was the youngest of all queens right? Guess her youth is what kept him interested in her.

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ananyacool

@ananyacool

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#105

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

He was obsessed with having children, and didn't mind ruining the lives of 352 women in the process. Even Kaushalya and Sumitra never really enjoyed marital bliss, as Dasharath was totally partial to Kaikeyi. In fact, I believe that Ravan could have made off with Kaushalya or Sumitra, and Dasharath wouldn't even have noticed.

Is coveting for Children bad?? I think obsession is different from yearning for children. If Dashrath was obsessed of having children then he wouldn't have been satisfied with 4 sons

Dashrath marrying 350 women might not be for children. In those days a king would not marry just for children, they married for alliances; for political favors .

I agree that Kaushalya and Sumitra were not treated on par with Kaikeyi and for Kaushalya the title of chief queen was just namesake. Also I am not in support of Dashratha for what he did. Just stating the facts. Dashrath even repents of having ill treated Kaushalya after Ram was exiled.

Originally posted by: Chandraketu
He was a misogynist, and adapted out his daughter Shanta to Lomapada, instead of letting her enjoy the life of a princess in Ayodhya. Like it would be a black spot for a Raghu emperor to have a daughter, whom he'd have to marry off, and show humility towards her in-laws.

(L) Romapada was a king too. Its not that Shanta was made a servant under king Lomapada. He must have promised Romapada of giving his daughter in adoption .

If Dashratha hated all women in general, howcome he was so attracted to Kaikeyi?? Why did he have special affection for Sita? He showers her special blesssing after sita's agnipravesha act saying that "She was special and dearer to him than his daughter and her supernatural act will never be matched by any other woman"

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Deepa

@chen2chic

Navigator

Posted: 16 years ago

#106

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Is coveting for Children bad?? I think obsession is different from yearning for children. If Dashrath was obsessed of having children then he wouldn't have been satisfied with 4 sons

Dashrath marrying 350 women might not be for children. In those days a king would not marry just for children, they married for alliances; for political favors .

I agree that Kaushalya and Sumitra were not treated on par with Kaikeyi and for Kaushalya the title of chief queen was just namesake. Also I am not in support of Dashratha for what he did. Just stating the facts. Dashrath even repents of having ill treated Kaushalya after Ram was exiled.

True, he could have married for alliances and political favors. But then, not necessary that he needed to marry 350+ for this reason. Were there that many different Rajyas? He may have started the process for their favor, but then continued for the reason of begetting a son. And he probably he stopped with Kaikeyee bcoz though she did not beget a son then, she satisfied him otherwise.

Originally posted by: ananyacool

(L) Romapada was a king too. Its not that Shanta was made a servant under king Lomapada. He must have promised Romapada of giving his daughter in adoption .

If Dashratha hated all women in general, howcome he was so attracted to Kaikeyi?? Why did he have special affection for Sita? He showers her special blesssing after sita's agnipravesha act saying that "She was special and dearer to him than his daughter and her supernatural act will never be matched by any other woman"

But why did he promise to give his daughter in adoption. What's the reason behind this? He could have had her with him and taken solace that he had a child even though not a son. Would he have promised to give a son in adoption???

Edited by chen2chic - 16 years ago

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ananyacool

@ananyacool

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#107

Originally posted by: Chen2chic

True, he could have married for alliances and political favors. But then, not necessary that he needed to marry 350+ for this reason. Were there that many different Rajyas? He may have started the process for their favor, but then continued for the reason of begetting a son. And he probably he stopped with Kaikeyee bcoz though she did not beget a son then, she satisfied him otherwise.

I never said that 350 women married by Dasharatha were from 350 different rajyas😕

Queen Kaikeyi was the youngest among his 3 chief queens not sure she was youngest among all.

Why should we hold Dashrath responsible that he went on marrying women and accuse him of polygamy. ? Why only Dashrath then??

Its not correct to judge them by today's standards. If so then each n every King, who had many wives, should be held guilty.

My particular objection is with the use of 'Obession' and 'misognyst'

Coming to Dashratha treating his queens badly was under the influence of Kaikeyi. He didn't treat Kaushalya and Sumitra even after his sons were born.

Originally posted by: Chen2chic

But why did he promise to give his daughter in adoption. What's the reason behind this? He could have had her with him and taken solace that he had a child even though not a son. Would he have promised to give a son in adoption???

I don't know the reason why Shanta was given in adoption , No mention of it atleast in Valmiki Ramayan. Again if he made a promise to give his 'first born' no matter son or daughter then he would be bound to give that son or daughter since for Raghuvanshis promise was dearer to them than their lives.

Coveting for sons is a personal matter just as food choices are thats what I think so.

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#108

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Is coveting for Children bad?? I think obsession is different from yearning for children. If Dashrath was obsessed of having children then he wouldn't have been satisfied with 4 sons

Dashrath marrying 350 women might not be for children. In those days a king would not marry just for children, they married for alliances; for political favors .

I agree that Kaushalya and Sumitra were not treated on par with Kaikeyi and for Kaushalya the title of chief queen was just namesake. Also I am not in support of Dashratha for what he did. Just stating the facts. Dashrath even repents of having ill treated Kaushalya after Ram was exiled.

Coveting for children isn't bad. Problem here was that he assumed that if a wife failed to deliver him a baby, she was barren, and he did that 350 times before he (seemingly) got the message. If Dasharath didn't marry 350 for children, that's even worse. At any rate, that theory doesn't hold - Kaikeyi was easily Dasharath's favorite, but there is nothing to suggest that he married her last. In other words, even though she was his favorite, he kept marrying and discarding women as they failed to deliver him sons. It's not like adaption was unheard of, as shown in the case of Shanta below: just as he adapted out his daughter, he could have adapted a son, if it was so important for him to get a heir. That's why I stated that he was obsessed with getting a son necessarily from his bloodline.

Also, there is nothing to suggest that these 350 were royal ladies - they could have been maids, concubines and any type of women. Under normal circumstances, they could have had normal marriages and lived normal lives. Marrying Dasharath only to deliver him sons, and getting discarded when they failed was just ruining their lives for nothing.

Kshatriya rulers in those days were typically allowed 2 wives - 1 the princess of a kingdom with which an alliance was sought, and whose son would be the heir to the throne, thus cementing such an alliance; the other would be his favorite, so that he wouldn't resent his chief queen, but could happily love his favorite, while fulfilling his duties towards the political alliance. It wasn't exactly a free-for-all, even though many did abuse their power and married as many as they wanted. Unfortunately, Dasharath fell under this category.

Originally posted by: ananyacool
(L)Romapada was a king too. Its not that Shanta was made a servant under king Lomapada. He must have promised Romapada of giving his daughter in adoption .
If Dashratha hated all women in general, howcome he was so attracted to Kaikeyi?? Why did he have special affection for Sita? He showers her special blesssing after sita's agnipravesha act saying that "She was special and dearer to him than his daughter and her supernatural act will never be matched by any other woman"

Like Chen2chic asked, would he have adapted out a son if he had had one? Granted, the circumstances of the adaption aren't exactly spelt out in Valmiki, and it may have been the same as Raja Shura adapting out Kunti to Kuntibhoja out of a promise to give him his firstborn. Nonetheless, in absense of a good justification, I don't condone his adapting out his daughter.

As for Sita, daughters-in law are usually more loved by their families than daughters for obvious reasons. Sita was married into the family, whereas Shanta, had she been kept, would have been married out of it. It might also have been partly a ricocheted affection - since he loved Rama more than anything, Sita, who was closest to Rama, also earned a special place in his heart, which is why he was distraught in seeing her in vanvasi clothes.

His attachment to Kaikeyi was something she earned as a result of saving him from death after his war with Shambara: prior to that, she was not his favorite. I don't begrudge him making Kaikeyi his favorite - she certainly deserved to be his favorite for what she did for him, but I do condemn him for doing that by ill-treating Kaushalya and Sumitra, and allowing Kaikeyi to do it as well. Just because Kaikeyi displayed such valor on the field didn't mean that Manthara deserved better treatment from Dasharath than Kaushalya & Sumitra. (Note: your non-endorsement of his behavior in this regard is noted).

I don't think his affection for Kaikeyi and Sita disprove my contention that he was on the whole misogynist, as noted in his relationship towards his 352 wives and Shanta. He liked 2 women and treated them well (incidentally, what was his attitude towards UMS?), while mistreating 352 and discarding 1. Do the math.

Edited by Chandraketu - 16 years ago