Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan - Page 116

In the episode, when it was shown that Vishnu meets Sita, then I was wondering why Sita is not taken aback by the identical face of Vishnu and Ram except for colour. I was expecting her to say, "What happened to you? Looks like you played too much of holi."

Does Vishnu-puran detail Rama avatar in the same way that it has a section on Krishna avatar?

Vishnu puran talks about Ram avatar but in brief.

Actually Vishnu puran contains so little about Ram incarnation that we can say it only has passing mention to Ram incarnation in a few places.

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Vibs

Very good question. I think it only applied to Rama, and would only be valid if Sita, but not UMS, were avatars of Lakshmi (although there is a school of opinion that considers that they were). Bhrigu didn't curse Vishnu that he'd be separated from wives he took during the incarnation who were not Lakshmi. Also, Bhrigu's curse is only active during Sita's exile, and not during her capture by Ravan. Nor is it activated during Lakshman-Urmila separation.

Of course, in today's episode, they showed Vishnu & Lakshmi still enjoying themselves on Sesha even as Rama and Sita were undergoing their pain of separation. Very bizzare depiction, as I mentioned in the other post in the Discussions thread.

Also, in Valmiki, there is nothing about Bharat & Mandavi living separately - I've only seen that in the Ramayan serials. In fact, I wonder whether even Tulsidas had that - I'd have to check. Can you confirm what Kamban says on this?

One small point - on the nectar partition, Rama was the first 1/2, Lakshman the next 1/4, Bharat the next 1/8 and Shatrughan the remaining 1/8. Dasharath could only do binary divisions 😆😆😆 For this reason, I used to think that Lakshman was #2 of the bros, until I found out otherwise, courtesy Chen.

One more problem I have with Bhrigu's curse - it seemed to punish Sita even more than it punished Rama, even though Lakshmi wasn't the one guilty of that crime. Shouldn't curses have been targeted to not have collateral damage?

Sorry for the delayed response.

Thanks for clarifying about the ratios.

And I agree with you that Sage Brighu's curse seemed to punish Sita more than Ram. I don't know why Sita Devi had to go through that. I wondered when I first heard the story of Sage Brighu's curse, "Why Ram needed to suffer being apart from his wife is explained. What about Sita? Why did she had to go through all that? Any story behind this too?"

Kamban does not mention hos Urmila, Mandvi and Shrutkirti lived during the 14 years. It is mentioned that Bharat lived an ascetic life. I am guessing that Mandvi lived in the palace but she did visit her husband now and then. Maybe she led a simple life too. Urmila was separated from Lakshman for the 14 years and she must have led a simple life too. Shathrugan must have been really busy - shuttling between Ayodhya and Nandigram, looking after the needs of his brother and carrying out his orders. In Kambaramayan (I think in Valmiki Ramayan too) it is mentioned that Ram, before he re-entered Ayodhya after his exile, discarded his jata along with all his brothers (or atleast mentioned 'along with his brothers') and wore fine garments befitting a king. My guess is that Shathrugan too led a simple life wearing ochre garments and dressed like a sage. Many of the South Indian versions of Ramayan (the serials and movies) have depicted Shathrugan wearing the ascetic clothes too. I don't think he wore royal clothes when all his brothers had refrained from it. Sagar's Ramayan and B.R. Chopra's Ramayan depicted Shathrugan in royal clothes when Bharat wore ascetic clothes. These were the only serials I have seen it thus. I don't know if Maharishi Valmiki wrote Bharat telling Shathrugan to live a royal life. Is it mentioned in Tulsidas Ramayan?

Bharat's and Shathrugan's wives were nearby but I think they were slightly separated from their husbands.

I haven't watched the last week's episodes yet. I have seen Monday's episode only.

I wonder what an avtaar really is. In Matsya Avtaar Lord Vishnu appeared as a fish. In Kurma Avtaar, as turtle but then he was available for Devi Lakshmi to garland him. He also took the form of Mohini. Varahaa Avtaar and Narasimha Avtaar he appeared as a boar and lion respectively. As Vamana, he was born to Aditi (that makes Lord Narayan and the Devas brothers and the Daityas, Danavas, the serpents, Garuda, Aruna, the creepers, the trees and plants, the animals, the cows and cattles his half - siblings, doesn't it?) and humbled Bali. In the end of that Avtaar he also took the form of Janarthana and stood to guard the gates of Sutala. It was for this reason (to see the Lord at all times) that Prahalad wanted to remain with Bali. He was born as Parasuram but again appeared as Ram and Krishna when Parasuram was still alive. He will be born as Kalki again. I wonder who his siblings will be. Parasuram will still be there to be his Guru.

To think of it all . . . 😕

I came to the conclusion that an Avtaar is an aspect of the God and not the God himself. There were many others who were worshipped as avtaars of Gods - Jnaneshwar and his siblings (sorry, I forgot their names 😭) were considered to be avtaars of Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva, Lord Brahma and the Mother of the Universe, Datatreya was considered to be an avtaar of Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu and Lord Brahma put together.

Chandraketu, Khalrika ji and akhl - thanks for the all the information.

So far I haven't read a detailed account in any of the translations of the Puranas I have read. Some of them mention Ram Avtaar - a gist of Ram's life till his coronation. It was the first time I read the stories from Padma Puran which Rajnish posted. Apart from that, no detailed account of Ram Avtaar in the Puranas.

Vibhishna,
Brahmand Puran contains some more detail of Ram avatar. And Bhagavat Puran also mentions Ram avatar but not in so much detail.

Originally posted by: akhl

Vibhishna,
Brahmand Puran contains some more detail of Ram avatar. And Bhagavat Puran also mentions Ram avatar but not in so much detail.

Akhl, is Brahmand Puran different from Brahma Puran?

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

And I agree with you that Sage Brighu's curse seemed to punish Sita more than Ram. I don't know why Sita Devi had to go through that. I wondered when I first heard the story of Sage Brighu's curse, "Why Ram needed to suffer being apart from his wife is explained. What about Sita? Why did she had to go through all that? Any story behind this too?"

Well, Rajnish posted the parrot/dhobi story, but that was from Padma Puran, and not there in Valmiki. Maybe it's just me, but the idea of Rama living in a palace and Sita in a hermitage, after Rama being the one cursed is somewhat difficult to resolve.

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

I wonder what an avtaar really is. In Matsya Avtaar Lord Vishnu appeared as a fish. In Kurma Avtaar, as turtle but then he was available for Devi Lakshmi to garland him. He also took the form of Mohini. Varahaa Avtaar and Narasimha Avtaar he appeared as a boar and lion respectively. As Vamana, he was born to Aditi (that makes Lord Narayan and the Devas brothers and the Daityas, Danavas, the serpents, Garuda, Aruna, the creepers, the trees and plants, the animals, the cows and cattles his half - siblings, doesn't it?) and humbled Bali. In the end of that Avtaar he also took the form of Janarthana and stood to guard the gates of Sutala. It was for this reason (to see the Lord at all times) that Prahalad wanted to remain with Bali. He was born as Parasuram but again appeared as Ram and Krishna when Parasuram was still alive. He will be born as Kalki again. I wonder who his siblings will be. Parasuram will still be there to be his Guru.

To think of it all . . . 😕

I came to the conclusion that an Avtaar is an aspect of the God and not the God himself. There were many others who were worshipped as avtaars of Gods - Jnaneshwar and his siblings (sorry, I forgot their names 😭) were considered to be avtaars of Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva, Lord Brahma and the Mother of the Universe, Datatreya was considered to be an avtaar of Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu and Lord Brahma put together.

I find Kurma avatar the strangest, since Vishnu first appeared as himself while planning the samudra-manthan (ocean-churning), then he assumed the form of a turtle, which is the Kurma being referred to, then after things started popping out of the ocean, including Devi Lakshmi, he was there for her to garland, and then he took the form of Mohini. Incidentally, after the nectar surfaced, when Vishnu took the Mohini form to separate the Asuras from it, what happened to the mountain - did it simply sink, since Kurma was (presumably) no longer there to support it? Also, why isn't Mohini then considered an avatar of Vishnu? And why is the avatar known as Kurma avatar, since Kurma was an important, but very minor part of it: it was Vishnu himself, rather than Kurma or Mohini, who decapitated Rahu.

Vamana would be the brother to the devas and half-brother to Diti's sons (incidentally, were Garuda and Aruna sons of Diti, or someone else?)

One question someone once asked me - if Ravan was to be killed by a human avatar of Vishnu, why couldn't Parashuram have been given that assignment? Let him marry Vedavati and take it from there? Did Parashurama know that he was Vishnu's avatar? Also, I recall reading in Rajagopalacharya's version that when Parashurama & Rama met during the latter's return to Ayodhya from Mithila, that was when Parashurama's avatar ended (even though he was immortal as a result of Jamadagni's boon) and Rama's avatar began.

I think avatar is the God himself, or to borrow and twist a concept in HDLs, an instantiation of God. In other words, temporarily taking forms to fulfill certain tasks/missions, and then return to the original form when it's over. (Incidentally, talking about Mohini, did Vishnu take that form whenever he wished - whether it was to kill Bhashmasura, or when he took that form to give birth to Shiva's child Ayappan)

I want to find out more about Kalki - particularly since I'm reading here about Parashurama being his guru. Can you point me to a good site that has more about him? And when appx is he supposed to surface (yeah, yeah, I know it won't be in my lifetime, but I'm still curious😆😆😆)

During churning of ocean, Vishnu was present as Kurma. He was there on the side of the gods holding the rope (the serpent). He was also holding the mountain from the top. All these three simultaneously.