RAMAYAN JOURNEY OF THE SOUL! - Page 5

Originally posted by: Krishni51

So,you mean all the versions made on SitaRam,

Valmiki Ramayan,Ram Charit Manas,Bhavartha Ramayan,Adhyatma Ramayan,Kamba Ramayan,Jain Ramayan etc. are the varying interpretations of the absolute truth!

Don't get confused between one who is recording an event and those who are interpreting it subsequently. Every version you mention, and there are others as well, they are recording or retelling the events as they took place, not interpreting them. They also tell us what they are recoding. That is, pick up any version of Ramayan and it'll tell you unambiguously that it is a retelling of the divine play of ParBrahm SitaRam. Of course, since there are so many events, a version may pick up or skip an event and another version may skip some other event. Also, since we are talking about events so ancient, the versions which we have today can, & most probably do, contain some later interpolations here & there.

Now, it's the readers who do their interpretations. And why they do it? We have already answered that question in earlier posts, because different people are under three different facets of Maayic power. If every reader is to completely believe that Shri Ram is Supreme Lord, that means everyone reading Ramayan happens to be a Ram bhakt, situation regarding different interpretations will be greatly simplified. But when that's not the case, different interpretations start. We have already seen in an earlier post how we have different interpretations of a single event (though disputed) mentioned in Uttarkand of Valmiki Ramayan. we can take up any other example as well. for example, when Shri Ram, along with Lakshman, comes back to his hut and finds it empty, he suffers extreme sorrow & anxiety over the absence of Sitaji. He starts shouting "Sita, Sita", he asks the animals, birds and trees of the forest if they know where Sitaji is, and falls unconscious again & again! Every version of Ramayan merely records this event. Readers subsequently look at it in different ways. Ask any bhakt and he'll say that his Lord is trying to act human. Asking animals, birds & trees of the forest about the whereabouts of mom, that's Shri Ram's idea of enacting a human setting scene of dad coming back home & not finding the wife there, asking all his kids if they know where their mom is. And when the kids don't tell him anything, he starts crying, shouting, "Sita," & falls unconscious.

But those who have doubt about the Vedic claim that SitaRam is the Supreme personality, will see this event and say, "Oh, so this man who is crying on not finding his wife at home, and is repeatedly falling unconscious because of extreme sorrow, is supposed to be the Supreme Personality, all powerful, all knowing, and Sarva Vyapak. I don't get it." See.

Though some are Satvik , some Rajasic , some Tamsic interpretations they all are of the absolute truth(directly or indirectly)!

If I'm not troubling you I want to know one thing...

They say Ramayan,Mahabharat etc. truly happened 1000s of years ago.

Definitely there will be a chronology of events that took place!

Of course there is. This chronology is what all versions of Ramayan are informing us about. Only thing is, different versions skip this or that event, and some versions may suffer from later interpolations, as is widely believed about the Uttar kand of valmiki Ramayan.

Sita and Ram if were born on earth "Born" is misleading in this case. They are without any beginning, and therefore have no end. Being the Lord of all realms, and Sarva Vyapak, He manifests himself whenever he feels like it, in His Maayic realm, which is not separate from Him, rather is contained IN HIM

in different bodies though one in soul "different bodies" is again misleading. Please try thinking beyond the Maayic concepts of a soul inside three bodies, i.e. casual, astral & physical, in this case. SitaRam is one personality, though visible as two, and NOT two different bodies. I know I am unable to explain this properly, really sorry about that, but that's the best I could do. This means, that who is Sita is Ram & vice versa. Here, the concept of two different bodies won't stand. Sita & Ram, depending upon their choice, may appear to us sitting next to each other, or they may appear to us separated by thousands of miles, this doesn't mean they are "two different bodies." Note that Veds simply define this Supreme Couple as "infinite bliss" (the exact term used for them in Veds is "Anant Ananda.")

then they might have lead a life though not ordinary a yogic life I should say! They lead neither ordinary, not yogic, nor any other sort of "life." again, the concept of "life" as we understand won't apply to them. There divine play is Sanatan(without beginning or end, and everlasting). Once in a while, we may get an opportunity, thanks to them being infinitely compassionate towards their bhakts, to witness this sanatan divine play in Maayic realm, and can take benefit from witnessing it if we view it as their bhakt.

An event in their life can be interpreted in many ways like we did earlier! People have been doing this since time immemorial, for sure, simply because they have either sattvic, rajas or tamsic intellect. 😊

They will definitely do their Karma(action){karma that remains ideal to the humanity}... I'll have to ask you to ponder over the following questions. How can the Lord of Maya do "karm" which is a concept applicable in Maayic realm?? How can someone who is beyond all realms and contains infinite Maayic realms IN HIM do "karm"??? Veds call Shri Ram as Maayadhishvar (Lord of Maya) and declare that while Shri Ram has infinite powers, we will discuss only two, Maaya & Jeev, because that what concerns all Jeevs, whom Veds are addressing. The Vedic concepts of Karm, Karm-phal cycle, Karta being Jeevatma but made out to be Mann, all these require long, and rather confusing for a beginner, explanations. If you could somehow understand it, all I can say here is that please don't mix two entirely separate, & hugely different, concepts of "Karm" & "Divine play" (leela.) If you are still not able to understand, tell me. I'll try to elaborate upon this later.

and we interpret it in different ways but we are solely talking about the absolute truth!

If there is no Karma done then there will be no point of interpretation!

How can we make interpretations for the karma they aren't responsible for? Remember, a person can interpret any event he or she reads or sees or hears about, based on his or her vivek, regardless of whether it is a "karm" by a Maayic Jeev or "divine play" of Shri Bhagwan.

I mean would it be appropriate to create an event or action on our own and give the interpretation!Isn't it something like an insult to such pious dignitaries!Won't the people miss the real life incidents of such Legendary Heroes!

Originally posted by: sherlock

Originally posted by: sherlock

Original version...if its there any where plz tell me I'll run to read it

Believe it or not, I once undertook such an exercise. It was very time consuming, highly challenging, but great fun. I was trying to read everything about SitaRam that is ever written in any Vedic literature. I left it midway, by the way. But during the course of that exercise, I found that beautiful Rig vedic verse, that single verse which tells us about the arrival of this couple in the forest, then Sita mom emplacing herself in the fire when time for Raavan's arrival on the scene approaches, and emerging out of the fire after the end of war & destruction of Raavan. (Rig Ved. 10.3.3) 😊

Originally posted by: Krishni51

Yes this was the point troubling me!Now got it!

So, can I conclude that the events were recorded accordingly and its the reader/listener who interprets it in his way(i.e Satvik,Rajasic and Tamasic way).But the absolute truth is SitaRam. Correct. 👍🏼

Also one should be careful while interpreting any event cause he/she will be moving according to his interpretation and one shouldn't blindly go behind other's interpretations...should have their own realm in understanding each event and this depends on his/her VIVEK.😊 ...Right. 👍🏼

True.What should one do with such Interpolations?

Just always remember the basic purpose behind Mom & Dad's decision to manifest their divine play in maayic realm. And what is that purpose? We already know. It is to help us, their kids, their children who wish to realize and experience their true existence, their true nature, as a child of Maa Sita. Mom could have easily said, "whatever instructions my children needed to realize their true nature, I've already given them through Vedantic conclusions. Let them study it, do bhakti, and reach their true sanatan home to their parents." But even though whatever knowledge is required to walk down Vedic Bhakti path is already in Veds, Mom & Dad still manifest themselves in our present realm. Why? Because they love us, since we are their children, they wish to make things as simple for us as possible. Now it's no longer necessary for me to indulge in complicated studies of Vedanta, or make wild conjectures, to realize how the Supreme Personality, the "infinite bliss", look, and how much She loves me as Her child. Why? Because I've seen that "Anant Anand", SitaRam, right in Her Maayic realm, where I am currently situated! This is the first & foremost purpose of sanatan divine play at times manifesting itself in maayic realm.

If we can keep this basic purpose in our mind all the time, then we may read any version of Ramayan, or watch any TV show based on Ramayan, we'll be able to decide immediately, AND subconsciously, without any conscious effort on our part, which events as recorded in that version are going to help us further develop love for our mom & dad. Rest of the events will automatically become immaterial for us. And this is what we want, because if we fail to develop love for Mom & Dad in our heart, what is the use of reading Ramayan?

Okay they are infinite we can't search or talk of Super Soul's beginning,ending,quantity,area,energy,feelings etc.These are the worldly parameters! 👏👏

This phenomenon is beyond human understanding and can be acheived only at an elevated state of mind right!

Achieved not just at an elevated state of mind, but at the final stage of bhakti, a stage of realizing that mom & dad are always with us, we were never seperate from them. The stage which Veds describe as "Bhagvad-prapti" or "Ananda-prapti." This understanding that SitaRam is one, Supreme, & that nothing ever exists except Them, is the end of Veds, and their final conclusion.

BTW do Casual,Astral and physical bodies mean Karunya,Sookshma and Sthoola sharirs?

Yes, you are absolutely right, once again.😊

So,then why do they say Ram's actions were that of an Ideal Householder???

Because His actions were that of an Ideal Householder! Simple.😊

True this is a difficult area to get with at a time but I'll try.

Ram playing,going to school,serving his guru,eating food,breaking Shiv Dhanush,marrying Sita,going to forest,killing Demons,Ruling the kingdom...how to take these???

You yourself answered this question in your previous sentence! These are ACTIONS Lord is performing in His Divine play, acting as an ideal student, an ideal son, an ideal husband, an ideal king, and so on.😊

Krishna speaks about Karma Yoga in Bhagavad Gita!

Sure he does. But He was addressing US, i.e. those of His children who consider themselves residents of, and attached to, this Maayic realm. To them is applicable the concepts of Karm & Karm Yog. Arjun was there as a representative of ALL OF US. Shri Krishna was NOT addressing himself.

So is it that since we got stuck in Karm-Phal Cycle we have to do our actions and Divine is beyond all these,there is no Karma for him???

The simplest answer is, one whose power is maya, and who has framed all the rules governing Maayic realms, how will you apply the rules he has framed governing one of His powers, on Him? He is the only one who has INDEPENDENT EXISTENCE, his powers like "jeev" or "maya" depends upon Him for their existence, for they are simply powers of him, & have no independent existence. It's something like, if I say, Krishni can lift 50 kg weight using her right arm. What I am saying is that Krishni's right arm has power to lift 50 kg. But this power exists in Krishni's right arm because Krishni exists! Now Krishni may use her right arm to drive a car, cook food, read a book, slap someone. Who decides what is to be done? Not the power contained in right arm, but Krishni. Secondly, even for the sake of argument, if we say that just because we see Lord doing various activities in a realm which is contained IN Him, he must be doing some "karm." But Karm is not like, if someone is seen to be moving around, or reading, or walking, or talking, or just doing "something" he/she is definitely doing some "karm." Don't equate "Karm" with "physical activity" only. Of course, most Karm do involve using the third i.e. physical body, but your body is never "karta" for it's maayic, hence "Jad." Karm requires a "Karta" and the "Karta" will then necessarily have to endure the consequences (phal) of his Karm. We are always "karta" because we have applied the maayic rules upon ourselves. But one who contains Maya in him can never be "karta" & can never do any Maayic "Karm."

They call Ram Maya Manusha Vigraha and Krishna Leela Manusha Vigraha can you differentiate them for me?!

Umm, actually I've been warned against ever doing ANY differentiation or comparison between Ram & Krishna & Vishnu & Shiv. So, won't say much. Just to answer your question, while Ram at least tries to behave like a "normal" human (for example, crying & falling unconscious when not finding his wife), Shri Krishna never even bothers with attempting to act like a "normal" human being. That is, right from his appearance in kansa's prison at midnight to Him disappearing from this realm, not one incident in His life can be given any "normal human twist." When He is killing Putna as a six day old toddler, he is smiling & playful, when he is killing the extremely powerful Kansa, he is smiling, when he is helping Draupadi against sage Durvasa, he is smiling, when he is driving Arjun's chariot in the battlefield, he is smiling, when he is witnessing his 161080 children killing each other mercilessly, he is smiling. No matter how hard you try, not one action of Shri Krishna can be equated with a "normal human." Thus, His Leela is so apparent, just nobody can miss it.

Originally posted by: Krishni51

I'm typing this for everyone!

When Shri-Ram Bhadra along with Bhadraya means Sita (loving this word!)came to the forest(Swasar means Dandakaranya),then in disguised form the lustful Ravan(they referred him as Jaro instead of mentioning his name it means one who has Jara Buddhi meaning Lustful Nature)came to abduct Sita,(however at that time)Sita was with Agni-Deva.When Ravana was killed,then Agni-Deva along with Maa Sita who was adorned with auspicious marks and refulgent with own splendours came in front of Lord Ram!

Great work, Krishni. You have given the precise English translation of the Rig vedic verse. I remembered only tid-bits of it. Many Thanks.😃

NOTE:

One thing is surprising...Here they did not mention anything like Ram asking Sita to prove her Chasity or take a Fire test to proove her chasity to the world!

She came along with Agni-Deva after the 'Jaro' was killed!😊

Yes, there's no mention of Shri Ram asking for any test.

Originally posted by: sherlock

What are the rules governing Mayic Realms?(I want to ask something else but I'll do that after you answer this)

Out of the infinite powers of Brahm, only two concern us. One is His chaitanya (conscious) shakti or "ansh" (not to be confused as "part") called "Jeev" i.e. all of us. Secong is His "Jad" (unconscious, though not "dead" as we understand "dead") shakti called Maya. Now the sanatan problem with jeev is, he always wants "anand" (what we usually describe as happiness, peace, contentment, in our day-to-day conversations). Why? Because being an "ansh" of "infinite anand" it is his natural proclivity to try & experience his "Anshi" (Shri Ram). However having no idea who is this "Shri Ram" & how to experience his presence, jeev has concluded that these maayic realms all around him, must be containing "anand" & therefore starts viewing himself as a part & parcel of maayic realm. The moment he does that, all maayic rules get applied to him.

Every maayic realm is ever changing. Nowhere can we get a maayic realm which remains unchanged from one instant to the next. But "jeev" is exactly like his master "Brahm" never-changing, without any beginning or end.still, trying to get "anand" from an ever-changing "jad" realm, "jeev" always ends up disappointed in the long run. But since caught in a seemingly endless cycle he keeps on going.

This ever-changing nature of maya it's because of its three components, Satva, Raj & Tam. Their interaction & interplay keep changing the mayic realm continuously. Caught in this ever-changing reality, and yet always wanting the one & same thing "anand", jeev has no other choice but to continuously keep doing "something". These actions(karm) may be Satvic, Rajas or Tamsic in nature. But since every "karm" necessarlity produces a "phal", every cause has an effect, therefore based on whether his previous "karms" whose "phal" he has to endure were satvic or rajas or tamsic in nature, jeev keeps experiencing joy or sorrow, victory or defeat, enjoyment or pain, gain or loss.

Of course, most Karm do involve using the third i.e. physical body, but your body is never "karta" for it's maayic, hence "Jad."...Please explain this line once again!Does "Jad" mean beginning?)

We have already seen that chaitanya (conscious) jeev is the "karta"(the "doer" or karm) & will therefore naturally be held responsible when the time to endure the "phal" of that "karm" approaches. That time may come within moments of doing karm, or may come after billions & billions of years, there's no hard and fast rule about it. Jeev may have used any number of "jad" mayic objects to carry out his karm, but they are not karta, jeev is, & therefore responsible for "phal." For example, if A shoots B, the pistol which A fired or the bullet which killed B, are not arrested as murderers of B. a gets arrested. Our mayic physical body is similar to that pistol or bullet, both are jad, both are mayic, hence not responsible for "karm." That's why the moment we leave our physical body, people call it 'dead body.' Throw it then in the fire, it won't react. Reality is, it was always dead, but appeared living as long as we kept wearing it.

I just wanted to know about these two powers of Supreme Soul 'Divine Maya' and 'Divine Leela'

Divine leela is an ever-happening, continuous, ever-lasting, never-changing, visible play of 'anant anand,' the one & only Supreme Personality that exists & known as ParBrahm, Parmatma, Shri Bhagvan. This play of bliss is continuously happening & visible in His sanatan abode, & is also present in all the mayic realms which He contains in him, but there, it remains invisible most of the time, & is rarely visible (as in the case of events which Ramayan records.) another difference is that this divine leela, when happening in His sanatan abode, is a clear cut manifestation of infinite bliss. That is, in their snantan abode, SitaRam, the true form of 'anant anand' are continuously worshipped by all their ansh (powers) & there is visible bliss & nothing else there. In the mayic realm, divine leela involves role-playing, the Lord & Bhagvati as hero & heroine, & then there may be villains, supporting characters & so on.

As for divine maya, say when Lord Ram is visible here, he is supposed to be the son of dasrath & Kausalya. However, he knows very well that he is nobody's son, actually everybody's & everything's parent. Still, he successfully plays the part of a mayic jeev, living his "life" as somebody's son, somebody's brother, somebody's husband. He does that using his power called 'divine maya.'