Sleet of Emotional Quivers on RadhaKrishn Love CC#10/DT Nt Pg#41 - Page 61

Originally posted by: Chiillii

You and I in 21st century can rationalise twins. Kunti could not. Neither it is far fetched to presume that Madri called Ashwins to have twins

She saw Madri with 2 men, she saw two children.

Why did Madri invite specifically the twins though.... Why not Agni, Varuna or anybody else

In any case why should Kunti give it to Madri to have more children than her.

Kunti already had 3, she didnt want to do anymore niyoga, she had every right to ensure Madri had less children than her, if the means of getting those children was by a Mantra that Kunti earned by her efforts.

How does not letting Madri use the mantra to have equal or more children than her become wrong or reflect poorly on her.

How does she become bad person here, when Madri actually got two children because of her

But was the mantra really that important? I mean if not Gods she could have easily invited others for Niyog. The kind of person Shalya was and the kind of company he would have kept, he would have probably got loads of eligible people for his sister's Niyoga if Pandu permitted.

Seriously I don't understand the importance of mantras here. 99% of the Niyogas happened with some human the husband approved why couldn't she simply get that instead of borrowing mantra from Kunti

Karna rehabilitation was started by Kunti and Yudhishtir after his death.

In my opinion Kunti knew that too many people already knew he was her son most of them were dead, but important ones were still alive like Vyasa, Narada and Krishna.

She rehabilitated herself by acknowledging Karna and Yudhishtir did the same, in that era killing elder stepbrother was a big deal. And Yudhi was very image conscious as was Kunti.

Narada helped by adding curse stories, to make it seem like an unfortunate destiny of Karna and his actions that pitted him against his (blameless) mother and brothers..

Infact in Ashramavasika Parva Kunti actually asks Vyasa, will be judged negatively for Karna. Vyasa assures her that whatever happened was not her fault.

Otherwise Karna is only glorified by Duryodhan and Shakuni. Drona, Bhishma Ashwatthama keep calling him out. Krishna mocks him. Parshuram in Peace mission clearly tells in the whole court no one is a match for Arjuna and Krishna

Originally posted by: Chiillii

No bodies of both of them are mentioned as brought to Hastinapur and taken on Arthi in a procession before being consigned to flames.

Vaisampayana continued, 'Dhritarashtra then said, 'O Vidura, celebrate the funeral ceremonies of that lion among kings viz., Pandu, and of Madri also, in right royal style. For the good of their souls, distribute cattle, cloths, gems and diverse kinds of wealth, every one receiving as much as he asketh for. Make arrangements also for Kunti's performing the last rites of Madri in such a style as pleaseth her. And let Madri's body be so carefully wrapped up that neither the Sun nor Vayu (god of wind) may behold it. Lament not for the sinless Pandu. He was a worthy king and hath left behind him five heroic sons equal unto the celestials themselves.'

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Then Vidura, O Bharata, saying, 'So be it,' in consultation with Bhishma, fixed upon a sacred spot for the funeral rites of Pandu. The family priests went out of the city without loss of time, carrying with them the blazing sacred fire fed with clarified butter and rendered fragrant therewith. Then friends, relatives, and adherents, wrapping it up in cloth, decked the body of the monarch with the flowers of the season and sprinkled various excellent perfumes over it. And they also decked the hearse itself with garlands and rich hangings. Then placing the covered body of the king with that of his queen on that excellent bier decked out so brightly, they caused it to be carried on human shoulders.

This is a big contradiction here

Either case the standards of those days Pandu literally forced himself on his wife, wasn't cautious enough to check the beings he is killing thereby killing a loving couple and is yet called sinless. No such objectives used for Madri though

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Karna rehabilitation was started by Kunti and Yudhishtir after his death.

In my opinion Kunti knew that too many people already knew he was her son most of them were dead, but important ones were still alive like Vyasa, Narada and Krishna.

She rehabilitated herself by acknowledging Karna and Yudhishtir did the same, in that era killing elder stepbrother was a big deal. And Yudhi was very image conscious as was Kunti.

Narada helped by adding curse stories, to make it seem like an unfortunate destiny of Karna and his actions that pitted him against his (blameless) mother and brothers..

Infact in Ashramavasika Parva Kunti actually asks Vyasa, will be judged negatively for Karna. Vyasa assures her that whatever happened was not her fault.

Otherwise Karna is only glorified by Duryodhan and Shakuni. Drona, Bhishma Ashwatthama keep calling him out. Krishna mocks him. Parshuram in Peace mission clearly tells in the whole court no one is a match for Arjuna and Krishna

@Bold no I didn't mean about what others said, obviously people did call him out and that's how we know he was a common warrior (ok above average warrior) and not someone great. I said about the pages they filled (or Verses Vaishampayan said) while describing even smallest of the achievement of Karna, like in Gandharva war and later too. At places even his virtues are mentioned. Day sixteen it's shown like he created a tremor in Pandavas clan

I now think that Vrishketu is a real character. Or at least one son of Karna was definitely saved who stayed with Pandavas post the war. Since they had lost nearly all their children hence Vrishketu/Karna's son would have been the only one of immidiately senior generation to Parikshit, a kind of father figure. Hence for Janmejay Karna would have been sort of a foster great grandfather, hence Vaishampayan didn't want to make a complete mediocre out of him and hence came up with so many good qualities for him

Could be possible

Any idea why Duryodhan never questioned Karna for leaving him die at the hands of Gandharvas? In fact still kept praising and fanboying him

Some points to keep in mind if we're taking a rational approach -

1. Kunti's boon was not responsible for Madri's pregnancy. In fact, there could be no such boon. How then was she in charge of both women's niyog?

2. Kunti might well have believed 2 men were responsible for the twins, but we know it was not possible. Even if she did, when she is not in charge of Madri's niyog, how could she veto it with Pandu?

The general thought is that Kunti was the duty wife and Madri was the beloved. To me, the trio's behavior gives a different vibe.

3. Pandu was not suffering from a curse. He died either because a) he had some kind of illness which made physical exertion dangerous b) he was killed, either by Madri or by someone else who saw what was happening.

He did not have any issue with physical exertion. He did a very brutal digvijay. Of course his death happened several years after.

But he was living in mountains where hiking is routine. If physical exertion was the issue he couldn't have survived in the forest for so long.

May not have been a Mantra. May be Kunti was having a privilege to summon exceptional people to Niyoga. A privilege given to her by Durvasa. More like we have black credit card, that allows access into very privileged clubs and places.

Maybe Ashwini would not respond to request of Pandu or Madri but would oblige Kunti.

Indra and Surya continue to support Kunti's children at their time of need. So she had a personal connection with them that she used to get children for Madri

And like I said it doesn't matter if Madri's choice of Ashwini was intentional or not.

Once she had two children and Kunti didn't want to have more than three she already had, Kunti stopped access to that connection for Madri.

And she had every right to. As that privilege, connection or mantra was hers.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

He did not have any issue with physical exertion. He did a very brutal digvijay. Of course his death happened several years after.

But he was living in mountains where hiking is routine. If physical exertion was the issue he couldn't have survived in the forest for so long.

May not have been a Mantra. May be Kunti was having a privilege to summon exceptional people to Niyoga. A privilege given to her by Durvasa. More like we have black credit card, that allows access into very privileged clubs and places.

Maybe Ashwini would not respond to request of Pandu or Madri but would oblige Kunti.

Indra and Surya continue to support Kunti's children at their time of need. So she had a personal connection with them that she used to get children for Madri

And like I said it doesn't matter if Madri's choice of Ashwini was intentional or not.

Once she had two children and Kunti didn't want to have more than three she already had, Kunti stopped access to that connection for Madri.

And she had every right to. As that privilege, connection or mantra was hers.

Something like psoriasis is linked to aneurysms, which might not show up as symptoms before a sudden death. Either something similar, or he was killed. I'd like to think Madri stabbed him with something long and sharp for what he did.

So if Kunti was allowed to summon 5 people using Durvasa's name, what do you think that power could be (in a rational way)? Just the mere name of Durvasa? Teh other issue is MBh clearly says Vidura was Yudhishtira's daddy.

I think the curse to Pandu was a sort of punishment.

I mean to think of it Pandu didn't commit a random sin, he had killed a respected sage. It was Brahmhatya, it was killing of an influential person. The Brahmins did have much rights back then and he wouldn't have been let go free.

IMO the only reason why Pandu got some leverage was that the sage was having a physical relation with his wife in open during the day which was forbidden.

The sages would have allowed Pandu a normal life, but also announced that Pandu wouldn't be allowed to get close to any woman and if at any time he gets into one he will be immidiately killed. Maybe the "curse" that followed Pandu was actually a man appointed especially for this reason. There could be no other way how a person could die at this

Coming to Madri issue that's exactly my problem. Undoubtedly Shalya or Madra was an important kingdom, even if Kunti had some access to some special men but even Madri could have got great kings with the help of Shalya (as I already said going by his character I think Shalya's friends would be more than happy to help this cause)

If she wanted children she could have got them from some slightly less prominent humans. The only thing (if she wanted more children) that could have stopped her was Pandu's rejection, and I think that's what Kunti asked Pandu. To not allow any further Niyog to Madri

He did not have any issue with physical exertion. He did a very brutal digvijay. Of course his death happened several years after.

But he was living in mountains where hiking is routine. If physical exertion was the issue he couldn't have survived in the forest for so long.

May not have been a Mantra. May be Kunti was having a privilege to summon exceptional people to Niyoga. A privilege given to her by Durvasa. More like we have black credit card, that allows access into very privileged clubs and places.

Maybe Ashwini would not respond to request of Pandu or Madri but would oblige Kunti.

Indra and Surya continue to support Kunti's children at their time of need. So she had a personal connection with them that she used to get children for Madri

And like I said it doesn't matter if Madri's choice of Ashwini was intentional or not.

Once she had two children and Kunti didn't want to have more than three she already had, Kunti stopped access to that connection for Madri.

And she had every right to. As that privilege, connection or mantra was hers.

Also the fact that in the previous section when Madri speaks to Pandu to ask him to get the boon for her, she says that she is superior to Kunti in every way, be it lineage or beauty and now she feels that Kunti had upstaged her.

Madri felt superior to Kunti and it's not far fetched to presume that she wanted it remain so forever. She was a princess and she would very well be aware of the fact that only way she could remain superior to Kunti as she was the first wife is by having more sons than her