꧁༺ | ꧁•⊹Ishita⊹•꧂ AT # 1 - Page 16

Originally posted by: ScorcherOfFoes

My original comment was about Arjuna's part. It's only when I got responses where I've replied about Draupadi. There's no one sided love story. I'm not sure where you got that. Both cared about each other a lot, in my opinion. And I don't think anyone mooned over each other. Also, saying that Panchali loved Arjuna doesn't cut her down. I think a first time reader would also be able to see that she cared about him. The first real conversation she has in the epic is with Arjuna, when he returns from his 'exile'. Anyway, I degress. This is about the statement I read that except Krishna and Drishtadyumna nobody cared about Panchali, not even "husband dearest". In my original comment, I've made points about how he did care. The responses were about her side, especially the Vana Parva part and I responded in kind. That's all. Also, again, I don't understand how saying either of them cared for/loved each other is cutting them down.

I said krishna and drishtdyum cared the most about her. I rechecked my comment couldn't find the husband dearest padt

By "husband dearest" thing you gauged it was arjuna seriously?? 😆. Let s not give him importance more than he deserves.

To clear once for all He WAS NOT her husband dearest.

Originally posted by: ScorcherOfFoes

1. Yeah, Savyasachi is an epithet. She could be talking of any ambidextrous man, but since it is given that she's talking about the husband in the middle, so with context in mind, it's obviously Arjuna. She starts the speech with the name Arjuna. I don't recall any other person with the epithet Savyasachi. Pundarikaksha means lotus eyed. Draupadi can just as well use that for Arjuna. She's been speaking of him for a paragraph and suddenly inserts Krishna in the last line? How?

Also, this is what Janmejaya asked-

Janamejaya said, ‘O illustrious one! When my great-grandfather Partha left Kamyaka forest, what did the Pandavas200 do without Savyasachi? It seems to me that the great archer, the vanquisher of enemy armies, was their refuge, like Vishnu is that of the Adityas. Without him, who is the equal of Indra in valour and has never withdrawn from the field of battle, how did my brave grandfathers spend their time in the forest?’"

He's asking what they were doing. How does it mean that he was ordering Vaishampayana to tell him of how much his family missed him? It doesn't seem that way to me. So again, what you're saying is a subjective opinion. Janmejaya also specifically asked about Karna's Kavacha-Kundala harana. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

2. Haven't read the Saugandhika incident in detail. But I did read the part where Draupadi asks Bhima to conquer the mountain. This is her 'order' to Bhima-

At that time, when the mighty-armed Bhimasena was comfortably seated at a secluded spot on the mountain, Krishna told him, “O bull among the Bharata lineage! As a result of the forceful wind generated from the suparna’s great force, five-coloured blossoms have been dropped near the river Ashvaratha and all the beings have witnessed this. Your great-souled brother,98 always driven by truth, once restrained gandharvas, serpents, rakshasas and even Vasava himself, in Khandava. After killing the ones who resort to maya,99 he obtained the bow Gandiva. You also possess enormous energy and great strength of arms. You are indomitable and irresistible and are the equal of Shatakratu100 in your strength. Let all the rakshasas be terrified of the force and strength of your arms. O Bhimasena! They will leave this mountain and flee in the ten directions. Then, devoid of all fear and delusion, let all your well-wishers behold this supreme mountain, auspicious and adorned with colourful flowers. O Bhima! This thought has been in my mind for a long time. Protected through the strength of your arms, I wish to see the top of this mountain.”

In Virata Parva, Draupadi basically decides for Arjuna that he will go with Uttar. There isn't any conversation between Arjuna and Draupadi where she asks or even tells him what she's going to do. I don't think the two situations are comparable.

I don't know when this became about who loved who. It certainly isn't from my side. As for romance, I'm certain as people who lived full lives, it would have been a part of their life. I don't think that's demeaning to either of them. To say that their lives were driven by it, sure is demeaning.

Chronologically:

1. There is actually no conversation between Panchali and Arjuna after he returns from exile. He apologized, she refused to accept his apology, he sent Subhadra to cajole Panchali on his behalf. How does that meet basic requirements of logic if Panchali were jealous of Subhadra that Arjuna would send the very woman to assuage that jealousy?

It would take Amar Chithra Katha level flatness of character for all three to behave that way. If Arjuna, Panchali, and Subhadra weren't merely calendar images and were flesh and blood people, there was something other than romance behind the apology and the eventual acceptance only through Subhadra.

The romance/jealousy part of it is also just a theory which got set in stone over millennia. Because nowhere does Panchali say she favored Arjuna. Readers like to imagine romance, that's all. Plus, of course, Yudhishtira's insecurity.

2. Actually, even before Arjuna went to Indraloka, there is a scene where Panchali BLESSES him. How else except in her capacity as Yudhishtira's wife? The same goes for any orders she might give the younger Pandavas. As queen and finance minster, she was higher in the hierarchy.

3. @Bold. When Bheema was around, Arjuna was their refuge?😆 The same Bheema who protected them in childhood, and with Hidimba, Baka where Arjuna was merely a bystander? The same Bheema who had as much to do as Arjuna in building the empire? the same Bheema who protected Panchali from assassination attempt after assassination attempt by so-called demons? Even Arjuna acknowledged Bheema later during the argument with Yudhishtira. That sentence (bolded) should tell you quite clearly what Janmejaya wanted Vaishampayana to say.

Also, point is she did say Pundarikaksha when talking about missing someone, and Arjuna is not Pundarikaksha. Krishna is Pundarikaksha. So either Vaishampayana added that realtime interpolation/lie (ie, Panchali never said any of it) only to please Janmejaya for dakshina, or she was talking about both Krishna and Arjuna. Is there any other place in all CE where Arjuna is called Pundarikaksha?

4. Bheema was constantly ordered around by Panchali. Saugandhika incident is definitely one. The only time she even went beyond ordering to manipulation was when Yudhishtira gave a direct order which she planned to go against.

5. She also went to Bheema with the Keechaka incident and NOT to Arjuna who was living in the women's quarters with her. She told Bheema to kill the perv in secret and plotted with him to purposely draw attention from him. In fact, she taunted Arjuna after that on living a cushy life amid the women. His crushed reaction is quite telling.

6. Also, in CE, Panchali didn't order Arjuna to go with Uttara. Panchali suggested to Uttara (the prince) that he take Brihannala with him as charioteer. She told him to have UttarA (the princess) ask Brihannala.

KMG has Arjuna asking Panchali to suggest to the prince that he make Brihannala the charioteer.

In the first case, the idea was Panchali's, but she got to UttarA to ask.

In the 2nd case, the idea was Arjuna's, but he got Panchali to have Uttara ask via his sister😆.

Neither scenario was one of any coordination between Panchali and Arjuna.

Arjuna-Panchali interactions:

1. Vyasa arranges polyandry. Pandavas know the plan befor going to Kampilya. They know it will be a political alliance.

2. When Vyasa explains to Drupada, he basically says Shri (Panchali) was seen crying by Indra. He follows her to Shiva's dwelling, and Shiva has a tiff with Indra. Eventually, it turns out that Shri is to marry the 5 Indras as Panchali. Hari will send a hair of his to earth as Krishna.

Taking out all divinity, Panchali, too, knew what the plan was.

The Indra she met was to be avatarified as Arjuna, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it WAS Arjuna. He saw her from a distance. What do you know? 😆 Swastik got something right.

3. Panchali doesn't say a word when groom switcheroo happens.... she doesn't even cry which would be the least e'd expect to see. Her nonreaction also says she knew.

Until now, no romance on either side. Arjuna sided with his brothers as he should have at that point. Panchali seemed to have been indifferent in a romantic sense except that she cried in her prior Shri avatar (not divine, I mean merely her pre-adoption life).

4. There was no one-year rule. The only rule was that they couldn't "set eyes on" Panchali when she was lying with one brother.

'Vaishampayana said, ‘O, king! Having been thus addressed by the great-souled maharshiNarada, they consulted with each other and arrived at a rule, in the infinitely energetic devarshi Narada’s presence. If any one of them set eyes on Droupadi when she was lying with any one of the others, he would retire to the forest and live the life of a brahmachari53 fortwelve years.

You can take it literally, but avoiding seeing her all day was impossible since she was a working part of the empire. Avoiding seeing her while she was in bed with a brother would not be enough to prevent jealousy between brothers. Which is why most interps say this means other Pandavas couldn't approach her for intimacy when she was supposed to be with one brother.

The harshness of the sentence imposed on Arjuna also says his slip-up was grievous. Otherwise, imagine sending your commander-in-chief for thirteen long years!

Also, Ulupi says something interesting. That Arjuna's brahmacharya was supposed to mean only Panchali. That also suggests his crime was sexual in nature.

This is where we start seeing hints of romantic emotion. From HIS side, not hers.

5. Arjuna married/dallied with Ulupi, Chitrangada, and 4/5 apsaras prior to even meeting Subhadra.

Panchali had no problem with any of it.

When Arjuna arrived, he went to Panchali BEFORE he went to his mother. No matter the amount of romance, this was a major faux pas in the absence of compelling reason.

*Theory*: The only compelling reason would be she needed to forgive him for what he did before. She refused until Subhadra went in.

Like I said before, people mistranslate this section as out of jealousy when text says "pranayaat."

The jealousy theory is also just a theory no matter how widely assumed.

6. Dice hall - this is where Arjuna shone. Bheema, for all his shouting, actually agreed that Yudhishtira had a right to stake Panchali. This, even after the criminals made it clear she was expected to have sex with them. When she refused to accept that she was a slave, they sexually assaulted her, anyway,

Panchali, contrary to what is widely understood, was not arguing women's rights. BHEESHMA brought up women as property. She didn't say it.

Panchali actually asked first if the king was intoxicated with dice. Then, she asked a question which could be taken 2 ways. If the king "lost himself" which could be literal, and Bheeshma clearly interpreted it that way. This was what she used to tie the court in knots.

The deeper, philosophical question of a king who "lost his moral authority to then claim command over his citizens, one of who was his wife," was what Arjuna responded to. And he timed it just right. He'd seen first hand what the criminals would do to her, and he spoke after Suyodhana made that foolish offer to free her if one of the Pandavas agreed.

Panchali, on the other hand, asks only for Yudhishtira with the first boon even when she didn't know there would be a second boon.

I like to think it was more dharma which made Arjuna speak up here rather than romance. In any case, he was the only one who broke ranks.

7. When Krishna came to Kamyaka, Arjuna was actually trying to smooth things over and beg Krishna not to destroy everything. It worked. 😆 But only until Panchali gave Krishna a lecture. He then promised that he WOULD destroy everything. Panchali threw a glance at Arjuna. How in the world is this a team glance? She got Krishna to promise the exact opposite of what Arjuna wanted.

This is another reason why I think the dice hall dialogue of Arjuna's was more dharmic than romantic. He was doing the same in the forest afterwards. Only, his and Panchali's philosophies were different on what was best for humanity. Arjuna was basically a pacifist. Panchali was a ruler who meted out punishment for crime as she said in her talk with Yudhishtira later.

8. Multiple assassination attempts on Panchali and Jayadrath incident later, the exilees went to Virat. Keep in mind they would've or should've known Panchali needed protection. Bheema couldn't pass for a eunuch. Yudhishtira and the twins wouldn't be enough. Arjuna could - dishy men frequently can. He basically said he is not a man to go in with her and protect her.

This and this alone makes Arjuna a superhero in my eyes. Panchali, however, doesn't seem to have given him much credit for it. All I can say is poor Arjuna.

9. The peace proposal with Krishna. Arjuna was once again clear he didn't want to fight his family. Then, Panchali came in and once again lectured Krishna on the duties of rulers. Krishna again agreed with her. Arjuna actually spoke up in a snit and asked Krishna which side he agreed with. Krishna diplomatically said he was going to do what was right. Later, he admitted to Vidura that his peace mission was basically a PR exercise to make sure Pandavas did not get blamed for war.

10. The rest is war where Arjuna put his family first constantly, not justice.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Chronologically:

1. There is actually no conversation between Panchali and Arjuna after he returns from exile. He apologized, she refused to accept his apology, he sent Subhadra to cajole Panchali on his behalf. How does that meet basic requirements of logic if Panchali were jealous of Subhadra that Arjuna would send the very woman to assuage that jealousy?

It would take Amar Chithra Katha level flatness of character for all three to behave that way. If Arjuna, Panchali, and Subhadra weren't merely calendar images and were flesh and blood people, there was something other than romance behind the apology and the eventual acceptance only through Subhadra.

The romance/jealousy part of it is also just a theory which got set in stone over millennia. Because nowhere does Panchali say she favored Arjuna. Readers like to imagine romance, that's all. Plus, of course, Yudhishtira's insecurity.

2. Actually, even before Arjuna went to Indraloka, there is a scene where Panchali BLESSES him. How else except in her capacity as Yudhishtira's wife? The same goes for any orders she might give the younger Pandavas. As queen and finance minster, she was higher in the hierarchy.

3. @Bold. When Bheema was around, Arjuna was their refuge?😆 The same Bheema who protected them in childhood, and with Hidimba, Baka where Arjuna was merely a bystander? The same Bheema who had as much to do as Arjuna in building the empire? the same Bheema who protected Panchali from assassination attempt after assassination attempt by so-called demons? Even Arjuna acknowledged Bheema later during the argument with Yudhishtira. That sentence (bolded) should tell you quite clearly what Janmejaya wanted Vaishampayana to say.

Also, point is she did say Pundarikaksha when talking about missing someone, and Arjuna is not Pundarikaksha. Krishna is Pundarikaksha. So either Vaishampayana added that realtime interpolation/lie (ie, Panchali never said any of it) only to please Janmejaya for dakshina, or she was talking about both Krishna and Arjuna. Is there any other place in all CE where Arjuna is called Pundarikaksha?

4. Bheema was constantly ordered around by Panchali. Saugandhika incident is definitely one. The only time she even went beyond ordering to manipulation was when Yudhishtira gave a direct order which she planned to go against.

5. She also went to Bheema with the Keechaka incident and NOT to Arjuna who was living in the women's quarters with her. She told Bheema to kill the perv in secret and plotted with him to purposely draw attention from him. In fact, she taunted Arjuna after that on living a cushy life amid the women. His crushed reaction is quite telling.

6. Also, in CE, Panchali didn't order Arjuna to go with Uttara. Panchali suggested to Uttara (the prince) that he take Brihannala with him as charioteer. She told him to have UttarA (the princess) ask Brihannala.

KMG has Arjuna asking Panchali to suggest to the prince that he make Brihannala the charioteer.

In the first case, the idea was Panchali's, but she got to UttarA to ask.

In the 2nd case, the idea was Arjuna's, but he got Panchali to have Uttara ask via his sister😆.

Neither scenario was one of any coordination between Panchali and Arjuna.

1. Yes, there is a conversation.

‘After the twelve years were over, he went to Khandavaprastha. He went to the king6 and humbly paid his respects. Partha worshipped the brahmanas and went to Droupadi. Then, out of love,7 Droupadi told Kuru’s descendant, “O Kunti’s son! Go to the daughter of the Satvatas. A second load always loosens the first tie, however strong.” Krishna thus lamented in many ways. Dhananjaya pacified her a lot and asked for forgiveness.

The Subhadra thing happens just after this. Arjun asks her to dress in simpler clothes. The narration emphasizes that they don't lessen her beauty. The "I am your maid." Thing seems to be Subhadra's own idea. Also, here, Draupadi accepts Subhadra. Whether she immediately forgave Arjun is not stated. But since they have the picnic/party in Khandava she eventually did forgive him.

He quickly went to Subhadra, who was dressed in red silk. Partha sent her away to dress in garments worn by a cowherd lady. But the illustrious one looked beautiful even in that attire. Arriving in the best of houses, the famous and beautiful Bhadra, wife of a warrior, with copper-red eyes, paid homage to Pritha. Then, with a face as radiant as the full moon, Bhadra quickly went and paid homage to Droupadi, saying, “I am your maid.” Then Krishna arose and embraced Madhava’s9 sister and lovingly said, “Let your husband not have a rival.” With a happy heart, Bhadra replied, “May it be that way.”

2.

Panchali's ' blessing' to Arjuna-

The hearts of everyone went with him and Krishna254 told him, “O mighty-armed Dhananjaya! O Kounteya! All that Kunti wished for you at the time of your birth and all that you desire for yourself must come true. Let none of us ever be born in the lineage of kshatriyas again. I always salute the brahmanas, who never have to make a living out of war. All your brothers will spend their waking hours in repeatedly praising and recounting your valorous deeds. O Partha! But if your sojourn proves to be a long one, we will find no satisfaction in our minds in our comforts, riches and even in our lives. O Partha! All our happiness and unhappiness is now established in you, our life and death, our kingdom and our prosperity. O Kounteya! I take leave of you. O Pandava! May all be well with you. I bow down before Dhata and Vidhata. May all be well along your path and may you be healthy. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! May you be safe from all beings in the sky, the earth and heaven and may all other beings not create obstructions in your path.”

I don't understand how this can only mean authority. I can see concern and love as well.

3. Is it a competition? Fine, in that vein. Arjuna is the one who protected them from Chaitraratha, the Gandharva and in the process gained horses and an alliance. He was the one who turned the Pandava fortune around by winning Draupadi's Swayamvara. Again and again it is emphasised in the Rajasuya Parva how he gained wealth for the empire. It is through him that Yadavas were firmly allied with Pandavas. He was the one who gained the very important alliance of Maya, who it seems brought wealth that funded Rajasuya. Arjuna is the one who ventured out to get weapons that strengthened the Pandava side. Both Bhima and Arjuna were called as refuge of the Pandavas in the epic. Just because here, Janmejaya reffered to him that way, doesn't invalidate the section or mean that he was forcing Vaishampayana to say that the Pandavas and Draupadi missed their own family member, while he was away for an extended time. It's kind of a natural emotion.

4. I posted the citation of Panchali's order. She basically goes on to praise Arjuna first and then asks Bhima to maker her wish of seeing the hilltop come true. That also seems like manipulation to me. Also, Bhima is 'maddened' by Panchali's words like a 'beaten bull'.

5. So, you want to kill a guy in secret. You don't have much access to weapons. Your options are two guys, one who is in a high position of the princess' dance teacher, is almost always surrounded by women owing to his job and his expertise is armed combat, especially ranged weapons. Other, is the palace cook, can have an easier time slipping out and is famous for killing people barehanded. He literally killed a powerful king by snapping his spine once. Who would you choose? Panchali was a very smart woman. I think she knew who exactly would be able to carry out her plan and chose accordingly. Her taunt to Arjuna is after the Upakeechakas incident where she called out to all five. Arjuna's crushed reply speaks of his inability to help her.

6. In CE Panchali takes the decision that Arjuna will be Uttar's charioteer, and subtly manipulates the prince into doing it. She doesn't ask or give any prior indication to Arjuna about it. This is highly significant because she's taken the decision to make Arjuna go which might result in their disguise being revealed. She also trusts him to handle the situation with the Kurus. Yeah, she got UttarA to ask because I don't think it was possible for her to go to him directly and do it. UttarA mentions Draupadi to him.

"O Brihannada! While he was looking for a charioteer, Sairandhri spoke to him about your skill in handling horses. O Brihannada! Be good enough to act as a charioteer for my brother, before the Kurus drive our cattle too far away."

So yeah, there is coordination. Panchali made the decision. UttarA mentions Panchali's idea to Arjuna. I think Arjuna was smart enough to understand who wanted him to go since UttarA mentioned it so clearly.

Originally posted by: ScorcherOfFoes

1. Yes, there is a conversation.

‘After the twelve years were over, he went to Khandavaprastha. He went to the king6 and humbly paid his respects. Partha worshipped the brahmanas and went to Droupadi. Then, out of love,7 Droupadi told Kuru’s descendant, “O Kunti’s son! Go to the daughter of the Satvatas. A second load always loosens the first tie, however strong.” Krishna thus lamented in many ways. Dhananjaya pacified her a lot and asked for forgiveness.

The Subhadra thing happens just after this. Arjun asks her to dress in simpler clothes. The narration emphasizes that they don't lessen her beauty. The "I am your maid." Thing seems to be Subhadra's own idea. Also, here, Draupadi accepts Subhadra. Whether she immediately forgave Arjun is not stated. But since they have the picnic/party in Khandava she eventually did forgive him.

He quickly went to Subhadra, who was dressed in red silk. Partha sent her away to dress in garments worn by a cowherd lady. But the illustrious one looked beautiful even in that attire. Arriving in the best of houses, the famous and beautiful Bhadra, wife of a warrior, with copper-red eyes, paid homage to Pritha. Then, with a face as radiant as the full moon, Bhadra quickly went and paid homage to Droupadi, saying, “I am your maid.” Then Krishna arose and embraced Madhava’s9 sister and lovingly said, “Let your husband not have a rival.” With a happy heart, Bhadra replied, “May it be that way.”

2.

Panchali's ' blessing' to Arjuna-

The hearts of everyone went with him and Krishna254 told him, “O mighty-armed Dhananjaya! O Kounteya! All that Kunti wished for you at the time of your birth and all that you desire for yourself must come true. Let none of us ever be born in the lineage of kshatriyas again. I always salute the brahmanas, who never have to make a living out of war. All your brothers will spend their waking hours in repeatedly praising and recounting your valorous deeds. O Partha! But if your sojourn proves to be a long one, we will find no satisfaction in our minds in our comforts, riches and even in our lives. O Partha! All our happiness and unhappiness is now established in you, our life and death, our kingdom and our prosperity. O Kounteya! I take leave of you. O Pandava! May all be well with you. I bow down before Dhata and Vidhata. May all be well along your path and may you be healthy. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! May you be safe from all beings in the sky, the earth and heaven and may all other beings not create obstructions in your path.”

I don't understand how this can only mean authority. I can see concern and love as well.

3. Is it a competition? Fine, in that vein. Arjuna is the one who protected them from Chaitraratha, the Gandharva and in the process gained horses and an alliance. He was the one who turned the Pandava fortune around by winning Draupadi's Swayamvara. Again and again it is emphasised in the Rajasuya Parva how he gained wealth for the empire. It is through him that Yadavas were firmly allied with Pandavas. He was the one who gained the very important alliance of Maya, who it seems brought wealth that funded Rajasuya. Arjuna is the one who ventured out to get weapons that strengthened the Pandava side. Both Bhima and Arjuna were called as refuge of the Pandavas in the epic. Just because here, Janmejaya reffered to him that way, doesn't invalidate the section or mean that he was forcing Vaishampayana to say that the Pandavas and Draupadi missed their own family member, while he was away for an extended time. It's kind of a natural emotion.

4. I posted the citation of Panchali's order. She basically goes on to praise Arjuna first and then asks Bhima to maker her wish of seeing the hilltop come true. That also seems like manipulation to me. Also, Bhima is 'maddened' by Panchali's words like a 'beaten bull'.

5. So, you want to kill a guy in secret. You don't have much access to weapons. Your options are two guys, one who is in a high position of the princess' dance teacher, is almost always surrounded by women owing to his job and his expertise is armed combat, especially ranged weapons. Other, is the palace cook, can have an easier time slipping out and is famous for killing people barehanded. He literally killed a powerful king by snapping his spine once. Who would you choose? Panchali was a very smart woman. I think she knew who exactly would be able to carry out her plan and chose accordingly. Her taunt to Arjuna is after the Upakeechakas incident where she called out to all five. Arjuna's crushed reply speaks of his inability to help her.

6. In CE Panchali takes the decision that Arjuna will be Uttar's charioteer, and subtly manipulates the prince into doing it. She doesn't ask or give any prior indication to Arjuna about it. This is highly significant because she's taken the decision to make Arjuna go which might result in their disguise being revealed. She also trusts him to handle the situation with the Kurus. Yeah, she got UttarA to ask because I don't think it was possible for her to go to him directly and do it. UttarA mentions Draupadi to him.

"O Brihannada! While he was looking for a charioteer, Sairandhri spoke to him about your skill in handling horses. O Brihannada! Be good enough to act as a charioteer for my brother, before the Kurus drive our cattle too far away."

So yeah, there is coordination. Panchali made the decision. UttarA mentions Panchali's idea to Arjuna. I think Arjuna was smart enough to understand who wanted him to go since UttarA mentioned it so clearly.

1. No. An argument is not a "proper conversation." The conversation and forgiveness happens between Subhadra and Panchali. However much anyone might think otherwise, Subhadra's deeds cannot be extrapolated to enhance Arjuna.

2. A blessing comes from someone in authority. She had that authority.

3. 😆 Competition was what Janmejaya made it. He wanted Vaishamapayana to specifically state Arjuna was all-in-all... that sentence itself should show clearly that Vaishampayana's response was to please the king.

Elsewhere, it is actually stated Arjuna's trip seemed like mere days for others though it actually took years. Contradictory statements.

4, 5, 6. Taking together saugandhika/Keechaka and Brihannnala going as charioteer - Panchali felt more comfortable approaching Bheema directly. She sent UttarA to Arjuna. Zero coordination between Panchali and Arjuna in the latter case. Actually, the manipulation is quite clear in the charioteer incident. Saugandhika was a direct order. Keechaka involved manipulation but that was after Yudhishtira forbade anyone to interfere.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

1. No. An argument is not a "proper conversation." The conversation and forgiveness happens between Subhadra and Panchali. However much anyone might think otherwise, Subhadra's deeds cannot be extrapolated to enhance Arjuna.

2. A blessing comes from someone in authority. She had that authority.

3. 😆 Competition was what Janmejaya made it. He wanted Vaishamapayana to specifically state Arjuna was all-in-all... that sentence itself should show clearly that Vaishampayana's response was to please the king.

Elsewhere, it is actually stated Arjuna's trip seemed like mere days for others though it actually took years. Contradictory statements.

4, 5, 6. Taking together saugandhika/Keechaka and Brihannnala going as charioteer - Panchali felt more comfortable approaching Bheema directly. She sent UttarA to Arjuna. Zero coordination between Panchali and Arjuna in the latter case. Actually, the manipulation is quite clear in the charioteer incident. Saugandhika was a direct order. Keechaka involved manipulation but that was after Yudhishtira forbade anyone to interfere.

I don't see any open, honest communication between Draupadi and Bheem in Saugandhika incident either, some form of manipulation is definitely involved. If that were so, why didn't she simply go to him and tell him to do what she wanted? Instead she felt the need to open with Arjuna's exploits. If she could order Bhima directly why even being Arjuna into the conversation?

This is what she says to him-

“O bull among the Bharata lineage! As a result of the forceful wind generated from the suparna’s great force, five-coloured blossoms have been dropped near the river Ashvaratha and all the beings have witnessed this. Your great-souled brother,98 always driven by truth, once restrained gandharvas, serpents, rakshasas and even Vasava himself, in Khandava. After killing the ones who resort to maya,99 he obtained the bow Gandiva."

And then goes on to ask him to do scare of the Rakshasas so they can go to the mountaintop. Also, it is about the flowers. Those are mentioned by both Yudhishtira and Draupadi.

Arjuna is also frequently equated with Vishnu . Janmejaya doing it isn't something new. Also, again, that is conjuncture on your part not the objective truth. Mbh is full of contradictions. In the beginning of the Parva about Saugandhika, it's stated that Arjuna has been gone for four years. That's a rare mention of a concrete time period. Just because at one point it's mentioned that way doesn't mean the Pandavas and Panchali didn't miss or worry about him. My mother is a gynaecologist.. she's busy throughout the day, yet she finds time to worry about me and call me. Just because a woman is busy doesn't mean she can't worry about or miss someone she loves. I don't understand why this should be considered demeaning in any way. It's natural human emotion. Unless you're saying having feelings/ emotions somehow lessens or demeans her.

Also, Panchali approached Bhima in the dead of the night. She had the time and space to plan stuff. The messenger told Uttar about the attack and Panchali was with him. She didn't have the liberty to go to Arjuna and explain stuff. She used the resources she did have. Earlier she was comfortable in berating Arjuna. This isn't about comfort but rather the circumstances.

Originally posted by: ScorcherOfFoes

I don't see any open, honest communication between Draupadi and Bheem in Saugandhika incident either, some form of manipulation is definitely involved. If that were so, why didn't she simply go to him and tell him to do what she wanted? Instead she felt the need to open with Arjuna's exploits. If she could order Bhima directly why even being Arjuna into the conversation?

This is what she says to him-

“O bull among the Bharata lineage! As a result of the forceful wind generated from the suparna’s great force, five-coloured blossoms have been dropped near the river Ashvaratha and all the beings have witnessed this. Your great-souled brother,98 always driven by truth, once restrained gandharvas, serpents, rakshasas and even Vasava himself, in Khandava. After killing the ones who resort to maya,99 he obtained the bow Gandiva."

And then goes on to ask him to do scare of the Rakshasas so they can go to the mountaintop. Also, it is about the flowers. Those are mentioned by both Yudhishtira and Draupadi.

Arjuna is also frequently equated with Vishnu . Janmejaya doing it isn't something new. Also, again, that is conjuncture on your part not the objective truth. Mbh is full of contradictions. In the beginning of the Parva about Saugandhika, it's stated that Arjuna has been gone for four years. That's a rare mention of a concrete time period. Just because at one point it's mentioned that way doesn't mean the Pandavas and Panchali didn't miss or worry about him. My mother is a gynaecologist.. she's busy throughout the day, yet she finds time to worry about me and call me. Just because a woman is busy doesn't mean she can't worry about or miss someone she loves. I don't understand why this should be considered demeaning in any way. It's natural human emotion. Unless you're saying having feelings/ emotions somehow lessens or demeans her.

Also, Panchali approached Bhima in the dead of the night. She had the time and space to plan stuff. The messenger told Uttar about the attack and Panchali was with him. She didn't have the liberty to go to Arjuna and explain stuff. She used the resources she did have. Earlier she was comfortable in berating Arjuna. This isn't about comfort but rather the circumstances.

Editing out my original response except for this part:

@Bold. Flowers don't grow on lapis lazuli stalks as is mentioned in the scene. Lapis lazuli was a mineral used for writing. Saugandhika was a gem. Saugandhika flower is the common water lily. Both are listed by Varahamihira. Another point is that the tribe was headed by Kubera, and he was the lord of wealth, not lord of flowers.

Panchali was building the war chest, not sending Bheema to pick flowers. She sent him to a gem mine.

________________

See, you seem really interested in MBh unlike some who know only TV versions. I'd like to continue discussing MBh with you and everyone else.

Romance discussions invariably lead to arguments like this because someone else thinks Panchali had a better relationship with another person. Then, there will be some like me who believe none of them were worthy of her.

So in the interests of continued discussion of non-romance parts of MBh, I'd like to stop debatign this question.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Editing out my original response except for this part:

@Bold. Flowers don't grow on lapis lazuli stalks as is mentioned in the scene. Lapis lazuli was a mineral used for writing. Saugandhika was a gem. Saugandhika flower is the common water lily. Both are listed by Varahamihira. Another point is that the tribe was headed by Kubera, and he was the lord of wealth, not lord of flowers.

Panchali was building the war chest, not sending Bheema to pick flowers. She sent him to a gem mine.

________________

See, you seem really interested in MBh unlike some who know only TV versions. I'd like to continue discussing MBh with you and everyone else.

Romance discussions invariably lead to arguments like this because someone else thinks Panchali had a better relationship with another person. Then, there will be some like me who believe none of them were worthy of her.

So in the interests of continued discussion of non-romance parts of MBh, I'd like to stop debatign this question.

I am interested in Mbh, and all its aspects. I don't have an issue with anyone believing what they want, the only reason I responded was because the statements here were presented in an objective form when they are all interpretations. I have no desire to get into any competition pitting the men in Panchali's life against each other to prove that she loved only him or only he loved her. My point originally was that Arjuna did care for her. And later, I responded to the comments I got. Anyway, it was a good discussion and I would like to continue discussing Mbh too. Especially because I haven't met many others who think in a more rationalistic sense.

Originally posted by: ScorcherOfFoes

I am interested in Mbh, and all its aspects. I don't have an issue with anyone believing what they want, the only reason I responded was because the statements here were presented in an objective form when they are all interpretations. I have no desire to get into any competition pitting the men in Panchali's life against each other to prove that she loved only him or only he loved her. My point originally was that Arjuna did care for her. And later, I responded to the comments I got. Anyway, it was a good discussion and I would like to continue discussing Mbh too. Especially because I haven't met many others who think in a more rationalistic sense.

At the end of the day, a lot of it IS interpretation because Vyasa didn't exactly tell us how they felt at each point.

In some cases, he does: like Arjuna's attraction to Subhadra. Or Karna asking Panchali to choose a Kaurava to have sex with. Or Panchali saying she wants Karna dead. Or Krishna listing out Karna's crimes at the time of his death. Or Krishna admitting his peace mission was mere PR strategy. Or the argument between Arjuna and Dhrishtadyumna.

But take the offer Krishna made to Karna. If we assume the tone of the convo was conciliatory, Krishna comes across as a vile little man. if we assume the tone of the convo was angry (because Krishna didn't actually have the right to offer Panchali to anyone), then the hue in which we view the episode changes.

Same for Arjuna's relationships with ANYone. Since we heard the story through his descendants, of course everything has been colored to make him look like the hero, including getting the heroine. But even there, Vyasa/Vaishampayana have left room for interp. The idea of Panchali favoring Arjuna is predicated on 2 incidents: one, the return of Subhadra where the word pranaya is used; two, the part about her missing him which was actually forced into the narration by Janmejaya. Would it surprise you to know the pranaya word was actually used in dialogue by Panchali to Krishna, not Arjuna? There is another scene where narrator uses that word between them. What are we to make of it? It's all interpretation in the end.

Yudhishtira tells Sairandhri that wives have to put up with a lot for their husbands. Meaning...you'll have to put up with Keechaka. Husbands will later take revenge. For me, I don't care for revenge after. I'd have wanted Yudhishtira dead then and there. Panchali had no choice if she wanted to defeat the enemy. She needed Yudhishtira for it. Now, some interpret it as subtextual communication between Yudhishtira and Panchali, that he was actually telling her without those words to go to Bheema. I don't believe that in the least. But again, a matter of interpretation.

What @KP said is actually less interp than all above. Krishna and Dhrishtadyumna were 2 people who were constantly and vocally pro Panchali among the men. Shikhandi never said so, but his actions were always pro Panchali, too. Sahdeva also was a great chunk of the time. Kunti and Subhadra were as well toward the war parvas.

Arjuna was a man of conflicted loyalties. There is no reading of the text which would suggest otherwise. I will concede that out of his wives, he treated Panchali with the most respect. Subhadra wasn't mentioned when he was ready to go to exile. After Abhimanyu's death, Krishna and Panchali console Subhadra, not Arjuna. Ulupi wasn't even recognized as a wife until much later. Chitrangada was sort of just there.

Bheema was more direct, but he failed Panchali when it mattered the most. Nakula was silent. Yudhishtira was as bad as the enemy.

There is nothing unusual about Arjuna being conflicted, either. In fact, I feel people connect with him because most are like him, needing to grow. Very few are like Panchali or Vyasa who are very clear on what they want and how they want it done.

_______________

MBh is so much more than all this. Since it's Panchali AT, the viewpoint will naturally be inclined more toward her, that's all.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

At the end of the day, a lot of it IS interpretation because Vyasa didn't exactly tell us how they felt at each point.

In some cases, he does: like Arjuna's attraction to Subhadra. Or Karna asking Panchali to choose a Kaurava to have sex with. Or Panchali saying she wants Karna dead. Or Krishna listing out Karna's crimes at the time of his death. Or Krishna admitting his peace mission was mere PR strategy. Or the argument between Arjuna and Dhrishtadyumna.

But take the offer Krishna made to Karna. If we assume the tone of the convo was conciliatory, Krishna comes across as a vile little man. if we assume the tone of the convo was angry (because Krishna didn't actually have the right to offer Panchali to anyone), then the hue in which we view the episode changes.

Same for Arjuna's relationships with ANYone. Since we heard the story through his descendants, of course everything has been colored to make him look like the hero, including getting the heroine. But even there, Vyasa/Vaishampayana have left room for interp. The idea of Panchali favoring Arjuna is predicated on 2 incidents: one, the return of Subhadra where the word pranaya is used; two, the part about her missing him which was actually forced into the narration by Janmejaya. Would it surprise you to know the pranaya word was actually used in dialogue by Panchali to Krishna, not Arjuna? There is another scene where narrator uses that word between them. What are we to make of it? It's all interpretation in the end.

Yudhishtira tells Sairandhri that wives have to put up with a lot for their husbands. Meaning...you'll have to put up with Keechaka. Husbands will later take revenge. For me, I don't care for revenge after. I'd have wanted Yudhishtira dead then and there. Panchali had no choice if she wanted to defeat the enemy. She needed Yudhishtira for it. Now, some interpret it as subtextual communication between Yudhishtira and Panchali, that he was actually telling her without those words to go to Bheema. I don't believe that in the least. But again, a matter of interpretation.

What @KP said is actually less interp than all above. Krishna and Dhrishtadyumna were 2 people who were constantly and vocally pro Panchali among the men. Shikhandi never said so, but his actions were always pro Panchali, too. Sahdeva also was a great chunk of the time. Kunti and Subhadra were as well toward the war parvas.

Arjuna was a man of conflicted loyalties. There is no reading of the text which would suggest otherwise. I will concede that out of his wives, he treated Panchali with the most respect. Subhadra wasn't mentioned when he was ready to go to exile. After Abhimanyu's death, Krishna and Panchali console Subhadra, not Arjuna. Ulupi wasn't even recognized as a wife until much later. Chitrangada was sort of just there.

Bheema was more direct, but he failed Panchali when it mattered the most. Nakula was silent. Yudhishtira was as bad as the enemy.

There is nothing unusual about Arjuna being conflicted, either. In fact, I feel people connect with him because most are like him, needing to grow. Very few are like Panchali or Vyasa who are very clear on what they want and how they want it done.

_______________

MBh is so much more than all this. Since it's Panchali AT, the viewpoint will naturally be inclined more toward her, that's all.

I agree with much of what you said. And I know that both Krishn and Drishtadyumna were vocal for Panchali. Just as Krishna is very strongly vocal about Arjuna and what he feels about him. Arjuna himself spoke very little but at times one can find him being vocal too. He mentions Panchali to Karn in Virata. I haven't read Kurukshetra war yet but I think in Karna Parva and all, he does speak of her. Though, yes he was a man of conflicted loyalties. He was also a man of compassion as evidenced by his regard for the horses on 14th day, his call of cease-fire so the soldiers won't die for lack of sleep on 15th night etc. but he was also very talented at killing. He had conflicting ideologies within himself, I think. But this is Panchali's AT, so I degress. I agree that Yudhishtira from Panchali's p.o.v. was as bad as the enemy and she says as much. Though she's careful not to antagonize him publicly. A lot of times she is portrayed as someone bloodthirsty and immature but in reality she was very smart and rational. Better at keeping her calm than anyone else in Mbh, in my opinion.

About Yudhishtira in Keechaka Vadha Parva he tells her to stop prancing around like a 'dancing girl'. Yeah, that's not something you say when you want to help or have even a shred of decency. Also if this tacit thing really happened, Draupadi would've mentioned it to Bheema, when she was trying to convince him. That would have been most effective. But when she goes to him she's not at all positively disposed towards Yudhishtira, and with good reason.

Subhadra does get a little mention after Krishna's visit to Pandavas in the forest. He takes her and Abhimanyu with him so she was with them until that point. As were Draupadi's kids who go with Drishtadyumna, at least initially since later Satyabhama mentions their training in Dwarka to Draupadi. I haven't gone so far as to read Abhimanyu's death, yet, so I can't comment about that. But I thought the ladies were in Upaplavya in Matsya, not in Kurukshetra. How does Krishna console Subhadra then?

About Ulupi, well she herself never showed any interest beyond the single night they had, as far as I know. She also said to him "It is your duty to please me. Otherwise I'll die." To convince him to sleep with her. That's shady. Being abducted while bathing, then being told that saying "No" isn't an option, are hardly fond memories. But again, I degress.

Can't speak about Chitrangada since she hardly has anything going for her in the epic. It's all up to the person. Perhaps the deal her dad made with Arjuna was with her consent, perhaps it wasn't.

Arjuna's journey gets limelight in the epic as compared to others, since as you said, he is the direct ancestor of the guy who's listening. His character growth is more apparent, from student to adult. So, despite being a reticent character we get some insight into his psyche. Panchali starts to come into focus properly only after Dyuta, which is kind of a travesty. I think she would've had her moments of conflict and vulnerability as any person would, but we don't get to see them. She definitely had clearer ideas than most people including her eldest Husband, who is often touted to be an authority on 'Dharma'.