~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 108

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Panchali objected. She actually had choice PER LAW as per that immoral elder, Bheeshma. The rest did have a choice- social mores said they shouldn't disobey, but there was nothing LEGAL stopping them from thinking for themselves. So yes, Arjuna was at fault there. He should've remembered his children. Actually, Panchali says the younger brothers enabled Yudhishtira in his lunacy.

Aap ke according arjun har jagah galat hai , acc 2 he is biggest villain of this epic. U can also blame him for Abhimanyu & shrutkirti's death

His sons , krishna & his wife Subhadra understands him well , no matter what loved him unconditionally , it was enough 4 him

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Yes, Krishna spoke about Subhadra's Swayamvar, so most likely she was old enough to be married

Killing people was norm, I mean not a single individual from Mahabharata would spend their time outside prison in today's world

Agree all would be in jail or a criminal in todays time

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

Aap ke according arjun har jagah galat hai , acc 2 he is biggest villain of this epic. U can also blame him for Abhimanyu & shrutkirti's death

His sons , krishna & his wife Subhadra understands him well , no matter what loved him unconditionally , it was enough 4 him

Subhadra blamed Arjuna plenty after Abhimanyu's death. Krishna called Arjuna a napunsak once and ripped into Arjuna several other times during war.

Pointing out Arjuna's mistakes doesn't mean I said he was wrong everywhere. I have also said he was the only one of the Pandavas to speak up for Panchali. Plus, he discarded his masculinity for her protection. He could've well declined marriage with Uttara and went on his merry way but made sure the girl didn't suffer for his presence in her life. His very reluctance to shed blood makes him a hero IMO.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

@Bold Virat HAD to suggest at that point. No man would marry Uttara since. See: Amba.for reference.

None of the words used matter in that context. They might have prettied it up, but it is as clear as the reason why Kauravas agreed to let Samba marry Lakshmana. There was no other option.

Arjuna didn't want to, but he wasn't callous enough to destroy the girl's life, either. Iravan was Ulupi's son, the woman he didn't acknowledge as wife until after war. There was already a promise to Chitrangada's father not to drag them (include Chirtangada's son) into the Kaurava-Pandava problems. Of the 2 remaining, Abhmianyu was older.

_________________

@Red. There is no single citation from text where Arjuna is referred to as Krishna BY HIMSELF. Only in conjunction with Krishna-Govinda as two Krishnas.

Not only that, Abhimanyu being Krishna's son is mentioned SEPARATELY from Arjuna in the SAME SENTENCE.

CE, CHAPTER 1025(48)

Krishna’s son was like Krishna and Arjuna and has certainly gone to Shakra’s abode.

________________

Where is Yudhishtira referred to as father-in-law of Uttara?

Virat didn't mention it, Arjuna did, If it is mentioned that marriage with Uttara was a compulsion then do quote it

Therefore, O king, myself who am pure, and have my senses under control, beg to thee, O monarch, thy daughter as my daughter-in-law. Thus do I attest her purity. There is no difference between a daughter-in-law and a daughter, as also between a son and son's own-self. By adopting this course, therefore, her purity will be proved. I am afraid of slanderous and false accusations. I accept, therefore, O king, thy daughter Uttara as my daughter-in-law

Here Arjuna is saying he and his son are one there fore Abhimanyu married Uttara, how can Arjuna and Krishna's son be one?

Abhimanyu's birth is mentioned where Subhadra is his mother, who other that Subhadra is said to be Abhimanyu's mother in the epic?

Again Draupadi didn't raise her son

Pandavas didn't raise their sons

There's so much more to support Abhimanyu being Arjuna and Subhadra's son

And then Dhananjaya, the son of Kunti, accepted Virata's daughter of faultless limbs on behalf of his son by Subhadra. And that great king, Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, who stood there like Indra, also accepted her as his daughter-in-law

Here Yudi accepts Uttara as his daughter in law, also written that Abhimanyu was Arjuna's son by Subhadra

Alas, these Kauravas also suffer their daughter-in-law, so unworthy of such treatment, to be thus afflicted before them. It seemeth that the times are out of joint.

Here Draupadi was calling herself daughter in law of Kauravas, Krishna being Abhimanyu's mama was Uttara's Sasur too

I'll stop the discussion on this here from my side because there's no point arguing over opinions, Abhimanyu can be son of Krishna and Subhadra or Son of Krishna and Draupadi too 🤣

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Virat didn't mention it, Arjuna did, If it is mentioned that marriage with Uttara was a compulsion then do quote it

Therefore, O king, myself who am pure, and have my senses under control, beg to thee, O monarch, thy daughter as my daughter-in-law. Thus do I attest her purity. There is no difference between a daughter-in-law and a daughter, as also between a son and son's own-self. By adopting this course, therefore, her purity will be proved. I am afraid of slanderous and false accusations. I accept, therefore, O king, thy daughter Uttara as my daughter-in-law

Here Arjuna is saying he and his son are one there fore Abhimanyu married Uttara, how can Arjuna and Krishna's son be one?

Abhimanyu's birth is mentioned where Subhadra is his mother, who other that Subhadra is said to be Abhimanyu's mother in the epic?

Again Draupadi didn't raise her son

Pandavas didn't raise their sons

There's so much more to support Abhimanyu being Arjuna and Subhadra's son

And then Dhananjaya, the son of Kunti, accepted Virata's daughter of faultless limbs on behalf of his son by Subhadra. And that great king, Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, who stood there like Indra, also accepted her as his daughter-in-law

Here Yudi accepts Uttara as his daughter in law, also written that Abhimanyu was Arjuna's son by Subhadra

Alas, these Kauravas also suffer their daughter-in-law, so unworthy of such treatment, to be thus afflicted before them. It seemeth that the times are out of joint.

Here Draupadi was calling herself daughter in law of Kauravas, Krishna being Abhimanyu's mama was Uttara's Sasur too

The fact that Arjuna mentions her purity should be enough to tell why the marriage was essential. Otherwise, how is that even a part of the discussion?

Abhimanyu as Karshni is definitely Krishna- Govinda. Arjuna is nowhere referred to as Krishna on his own.Doesn't mean Krishna was the biological father. Krishna raised the boy.

My two cents

Very few women in the epic had a real consent regarding their partner. One was Kunti, the other was Ulupi.

For rest of the women mentioned the epic shows it as consent but it was not real. They did not have the option to say no.

However each of these 4 women were different in their response to the situation they were put it.

Amba, she chose to refuse - she ended up alone and had to kill herself.

Gandhari - she chose to be silent but non cooperative partner

Subhadra / Bhanumati / Lakshmana / Uttara - they chose to accept it. Made peace with it. Presumed it as destiny

Draupadi / Hidimba - saw it as an opportunity to do something better with their lives.

Do note Subhadra/ Bhanumati /Lakshmana / Uttara - all four of them were not in a neutral space. Which is what an arranged marriage is. You dont love a person. You dont hate him either. Its a neutral space.

Bhanumati and Lakshmana didnt want to marry the men who abducted them

Uttara was staring at infamy and ostracisation. She would have been shamed for being with Arjun for a year. And Arjun marrying her would have actually caused people to believe that they had a premarital relationship. So only dignified option was Arjun's son.

Subhadra was not in a neutral space too. Its very clear in Krishna's words that there was a possibility she would not choose Arjun. Why would that possibility be. Was Arjun not the literally the best guy around. As in if Arjun walks into a swayamvar why would any girl even look at any other man, except maybe Krishna. But Krishna is the brother here. So most likely scenario, she already had someone else in mind, that Krishna knew and therefore instead of formally arranging a marriage that he could have done in minutes. He makes Arjun kidnap her

Originally posted by: Chiillii

My two cents

Very few women in the epic had a real consent regarding their partner. One was Kunti, the other was Ulupi.

For rest of the women mentioned the epic shows it as consent but it was not real. They did not have the option to say no.

However each of these 4 women were different in their response to the situation they were put it.

Amba, she chose to refuse - she ended up alone and had to kill herself.

Gandhari - she chose to be silent but non cooperative partner

Subhadra / Bhanumati / Lakshmana / Uttara - they chose to accept it. Made peace with it. Presumed it as destiny

Draupadi / Hidimba - saw it as an opportunity to do something better with their lives.

Do note Subhadra/ Bhanumati /Lakshmana / Uttara - all four of them were not in a neutral space. Which is what an arranged marriage is. You dont love a person. You dont hate him either. Its a neutral space.

Bhanumati and Lakshmana didnt want to marry the men who abducted them

Uttara was staring at infamy and ostracisation. She would have been shamed for being with Arjun for a year. And Arjun marrying her would have actually caused people to believe that they had a premarital relationship. So only dignified option was Arjun's son.

Subhadra was not in a neutral space too. Its very clear in Krishna's words that there was a possibility she would not choose Arjun. Why would that possibility be. Was Arjun not the literally the best guy around. As in if Arjun walks into a swayamvar why would any girl even look at any other man, except maybe Krishna. But Krishna is the brother here. So most likely scenario, she already had someone else in mind, that Krishna knew and therefore instead of formally arranging a marriage that he could have done in minutes. He makes Arjun kidnap her

Who was in subhadra's mind ? Duryodhana ?

I agree all ur points , why dint she showed any anger towards krishna.

Showing anger only belong on some girls .

Kunti all life kept holding grudges against her brother & father

Subhadra ka 2 hint bhi nhi hai .

I feel Subhadra was intelligent or grl who has her own choice coz of krishna who was good at manipulation was doubting on her choice than this hints more to story that subhadra was definitely not sweet kiddish grl . She was not like balram jisse koi bhi bewakoof bana sakta hai .

Subhadra definitely got 2 know whose plan it was coz arjun was riding krishna's golden chariot , untill she think he stole it 2

We can all agree to disagree

Originally posted by: naq5

Agree all would be in jail or a criminal in todays time

Polygamy is a crime in India punishable up to 7 years in Prison, Sab jail me hote including Draupadi🤣

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

One of things we frequently miss or misinterpret:

45 surakāryam iyaṃ kāle kariṣyati sumadhyamā

asyā hetoḥ kṣatriyāṇāṃ mahad utpatsyate bhayam

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs01155.htm

Supreme among women, this beauty of

the dark complexion will bring about the destruction of the Kshatriyas. In time, this one with

the beautiful waist will perform the objective of the gods. From her will arise terrible fear

among the Kshatriyas.

-------

This was a PLAN, not a prophecy. Panchali's adoption by Drupada was a planned move. All the surrounding stories become meaningless once we realize this.

No, she couldn't have been Yaja/Upayaja's child because it would mean Drupada just wandered around, seeking random children.

No, they couldn't have been Drupada's own because 1) Dhrishtadyumna would've been known before and 2) Kuru-Panchal alliance worked before without any adoption (Amba, Ambika, Ambalika with their Srinjaya grandfather) and the only reason to do an adoption would be to bring in another clan with stakes in the plan 3) Drupada would've had more of a reaction to everything that happened to Panchali after

Apart from kshatriya vs. kshatrya conflict, there was the Vasishta-Varuni vs Angirasa clash. Any interpretation which fails to take into account these 2 battles is either 1) assuming everything happened randomly or 2) assuming everything happened by magic.

@chilli what do you think about the above prophecy was it a prophecy or a plan??

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Polygamy is a crime in India punishable up to 7 years in Prison, Sab jail me hote including Draupadi🤣

Polyandry is a crime too. In today s world Neither of them was a crime in that era.