~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 107

Originally posted by: NoraSM

And Vibhatsu (Arjuna) there obtained for a wife the lotus-eyed and sweet-speeched younger sister of Vasudeva, Subhadra by name. And she became united, in gladness, with Arjuna, the son of Pandu, like Sachi with the great Indra, or Sri with Krishna

Subhadra's interaction with Draupadi showed she wanted good for her husband -

Then that girl of face like the full moon hastily went unto Draupadi and worshipped her, saying, 'I am thy maid!' Krishna rose hastily and embraced the sister of Madhava from affection, and said, 'Let thy husband be without a foe!' Bhadra then, with a delighted heart, said unto Draupadi, 'So be it!'

Marital Rape is husband forcing himself on his wife, What suggested that Arjuna forced himself on her? What about Subhadra's interaction suggest PTSD and rape? I don't see hostility from her side against Krishna and Arjuna

I don't believe in this marital rape or rape theory not because they can't do it but because its not written or suggested in the epic

Abduction for marriage is a crime, Subhadra's right was taken away, I do find both Arjuna and Krishna guilty for this

Why should Subhadra have any issues with Draupadi? Her statement/interaction is completely heartfelt and that's how it would

About the first statement. Well if she was glad at it, maybe, I wouldn't comment, but pretty seriously I don't think she could be happy at the turn of events, now if the mentality of girls back then was different to actually like the alpha males who superimpose by force (I mean Abduction here not r**e) then that's a different case.. But normally a 15 year old girl just abducted and married to her adductor could be in anything but PTSD and immidiately bearing a child at that age isn't something I would like either

I am not saying that it was bad as per those days' standards, probably it wasn't, but I don't find it morally correct, since a 15 year old is a kid's age not even a proper adolescent.

Anyhow my point wasn't that or I wasn't even suggesting a r**e, I simply said that I don't want to believe that Subhadra a 15 year old was impregnated immidiately after her abduction/marriage(which is anything but non consensual), had I heard the same about the hero from some other religion, I would have mocked and condemned him(I actually do so)

So I wanted to believe that probably Abhimanyu was someone's else's child adopted by Arjun Subhadra that's it

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Why should Subhadra have any issues with Draupadi? Her statement/interaction is completely heartfelt and that's how it would

About the first statement. Well if she was glad at it, maybe, I wouldn't comment, but pretty seriously I don't think she could be happy at the turn of events, now if the mentality of girls back then was different to actually like the alpha males who superimpose by force (I mean Abduction here not r**e) then that's a different case.. But normally a 15 year old girl just abducted and married to her adductor could be in anything but PTSD and immidiately bearing a child at that age isn't something I would like either

I am not saying that it was bad as per those days' standards, probably it wasn't, but I don't find it morally correct, since a 15 year old is a kid's age not even a proper adolescent.

Anyhow my point wasn't that or I wasn't even suggesting a r**e, I simply said that I don't want to believe that Subhadra a 15 year old was impregnated immidiately after her abduction/marriage, had I heard the same about the hero from some other religion, I would have mocked and condemned him(I actually do so)

So I wanted to believe that probably Abhimanyu was someone's else's child adopted by Arjun Subhadra that's it

Neither Abhimanyu is some else child nor subhadra ever raped . Adoption ka baat tab aati hai jab subhadra would had been incapable of giving birth which she was not nor arjun was.

Adoption of Kunti happened by kuntibhoj coz he was childless.

It is mentioned arjun staying in dwarka for full one year & later he spent few months in Pushkar too before returning to indraprastha.

acc 2 it subhadra should return with a baby Abhimanyu, I don't think subhadra was pregnant went she returned indraprastha .

Can u plz help me where it is mentioned Subhadra was pregnant when she returned indraprastha ? I seriously asking it coz I never heard this so.

@ preet & Nora

We can all agree to disagree coz we will not agree to each other point

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Why should Subhadra have any issues with Draupadi? Her statement/interaction is completely heartfelt and that's how it would

About the first statement. Well if she was glad at it, maybe, I wouldn't comment, but pretty seriously I don't think she could be happy at the turn of events, now if the mentality of girls back then was different to actually like the alpha males who superimpose by force (I mean Abduction here not r**e) then that's a different case.. But normally a 15 year old girl just abducted and married to her adductor could be in anything but PTSD and immidiately bearing a child at that age isn't something I would like either

I am not saying that it was bad as per those days' standards, probably it wasn't, but I don't find it morally correct, since a 15 year old is a kid's age not even a proper adolescent.

Anyhow my point wasn't that or I wasn't even suggesting a r**e, I simply said that I don't want to believe that Subhadra a 15 year old was impregnated immidiately after her abduction/marriage(which is anything but non consensual), had I heard the same about the hero from some other religion, I would have mocked and condemned him(I actually do so)

So I wanted to believe that probably Abhimanyu was someone's else's child adopted by Arjun Subhadra that's it

No

Subhadra - Draupadi conversation is about Arjuna, You see Draupadi said good things about Arjuna’a future, someone who was raped wouldn’t like hearing “May Your rapist have no enemies”

Subhadra doesn’t show hatred towards Arjuna which would have been there if she was raped, I cannot see a rape victim thinking good about someone who raped her.

Abduction for marriage is a non bailable offense so it is definitely not correct for someone to follow Arjuna and Krishna’s footsteps today

I don’t know about Subhadra’a age and when did she deliver Abhimanyu? The time isn’t specified

Re: age. There were rules regarding marriage which were listed in ManuSmriti and relisted by Bheeshma in Anushasana Parva.

Kumaari means girl had to be at least 13. Once a girl got to her period without marrying, they had to wait 3 years. After 3 years passed with no husband, she was free to choose her own. SInce Panchali's description was that of a fully developed female, we can safely assume she'd already hit puberty. So the minimum she was at adoption was 13 with puberty (kumaari chaapi and figure). So there had to be a 3-year gap between whenever she hit puberty and her wedding. Ie, Panchali was at a MINIMUM 16, could be older also. Subhadra was anywhere 15 or under though she, too, surely hit puberty (her physical description is not given).

There is a HUGE difference between arranged marriage and abduction. What Arjuna did was what men of the era did all the time. What Krishna did was NOT. Which brother has arranged the abduction of his own sister even in those days? Poor Subhadra wouldve felt completely abandoned. Even with Suyodhana's daughter, Kauravas behaved better and agreed to marriage only when they say there was no other choice.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Virat didn't even talk about marrying his daughter to Arjuna because of this reason, He asked Arjuna to marry her and Arjuna suggested his son Abhimanyu marries Virat's daughter. Virat asked him why doesn't Arjuna wish to marry her? It is then Arjuna replied that He treated her like a daughter when he lived there, therefore he can't marry her and there's no difference between a daughter and a daughter in law

Virat doesn't mention what you are saying

And if Arjuna's son had to marry, if not him then it would be Srutakirti, Iravan and Babruvahana, why would Arjuna fix marriage of Krishna's son saying Krishna's son Abhimanyu is like Arjuna?

Subhadra is described as Abhimanyu's mother, unless we incest upon Krishna being his biological father, I don't see how it is possible when the epic is clear about this -

Then Subhadra, the favourite sister of Kesava, gave birth to an illustrious son, like Puloma's daughter, (the queen of heaven) bringing forth Jayanta. And the son that Subhadra brought forth was of long arms, broad chest, and eyes as large as those of a bull. That hero and oppressor of foes came to be called Abhimanyu. And the son of Arjuna, that grinder of foes and bull among men, was called Abhimanyu because he was fearless and wrathful. And that great warrior was begotten upon the daughter of the Satwata race by Dhananjaya, like fire produced in a sacrifice from within the sami wood by the process of rubbing

About Krishna being called Abhi's father because he raised him then Pandu didn't raise his sons, Pandava's real fathers didn't raise them, Pandavas didn't raise their sons, Draupadi didn't raise her sons, Subhadra did, why isn't Subhadra called mother of UpaPandavas? Or why Dristadymya isn't called father of Upapandavas?

"And then Dhananjaya, the son of Kunti, accepted Virata's daughter of faultless limbs on behalf of his son by Subhadra. And that great king, Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, who stood there like Indra, also accepted her as his daughter-in-law. And having accepted her, the son of Pritha, with Janardana before him, caused the nuptial ceremonies to be performed of the illustrious son of Subhadra

Yudi is called Father in law of Uttara too, doesn't make him father of Abhimanyu

So the "Krishna's son" could be Arjuna too

@Bold Virat HAD to suggest at that point. No man would marry Uttara since. See: Amba.for reference.

None of the words used matter in that context. They might have prettied it up, but it is as clear as the reason why Kauravas agreed to let Samba marry Lakshmana. There was no other option.

Arjuna didn't want to, but he wasn't callous enough to destroy the girl's life, either. Iravan was Ulupi's son, the woman he didn't acknowledge as wife until after war. There was already a promise to Chitrangada's father not to drag them (include Chirtangada's son) into the Kaurava-Pandava problems. Of the 2 remaining, Abhmianyu was older.

_________________

@Red. There is no single citation from text where Arjuna is referred to as Krishna BY HIMSELF. Only in conjunction with Krishna-Govinda as two Krishnas.

Not only that, Abhimanyu being Krishna's son is mentioned SEPARATELY from Arjuna in the SAME SENTENCE.

CE, CHAPTER 1025(48)

Krishna’s son was like Krishna and Arjuna and has certainly gone to Shakra’s abode.

________________

Where is Yudhishtira referred to as father-in-law of Uttara?

There is a huge diff between Pandu not raising his sons and Arjuna not raising his. Pandu DIED. Plus, there was no surrogate father in the pic. in fact, I'd even suggest part of the reason Pandavas were so unified was Yudhishtira was their surrogate father.

Arjuna enabled Yudhishtira in his mistakes, ethos of the times or not. His absence in his son's life was his own doing, not an act of God or something done out of necessity like Krishna being moved to Gokul.

Re: the men's ages:

36. In the eighth year after conception, one should perform the initiation (upanayana) of a Brahmana, in the eleventh after conception (that) of a Kshatriya, but in the twelfth that of a Vaisya.

37. (The initiation) of a Brahmana who desires proficiency in sacred learning should take place in the fifth (year after conception), (that) of a Kshatriya who wishes to become powerful in the sixth, (and that) of a Vaisya who longs for (success in his) business in the eighth.

38. The (time for the) Savitri (initiation) of a Brahmana does not pass until the completion of the sixteenth year (after conception), of a Kshatriya until the completion of the twenty-second, and of a Vaisya until the completion of the twenty-fourth.

39. After those (periods men of) these three (castes) who have not received the sacrament at the proper time, become Vratyas (outcasts), excluded from the Savitri (initiation) and despised by the Aryans.

https://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/manusmriti_1.asp

Yudhishtira could've started school started late

But max he would've been is 22 which is impossible.

Also impossible that Suyodhana, etc. who grew up in palace didn't have a guru that long

I'd put the eldest at 11 and the youngest (twins) at 6

Which would mean Arjuna was 7 or 8

Making him 20 when he finished. 22ish at swayamvara.

Plus, Krishna was supposed to 12-13 years older than Subhadra.

Since Subhadra's swayamvara wasn't yet fixed, she was at max 15

Putting Krishna at 27/28

And Arjuna the same age

Calculating back to Panchali swayamvara, Arjuna would be 22, allowing for 13-month exile.

Which actually is one more piece of evidence exile was 13 months. 12-year exile would make Arjuna 38-ish which would mean Subhadra was 25-26 which is unlikely.

Arjun's absence in life of his sons was definitely not his fault .

Arjun can never stay in Manipur nor babruvahan can live indraprastha as per demand of Chitrangada's father , babruvahan should be out of kaurav pandav politics , but he did invited Chitrangada 4 rajsuya yagya , I guess she came 2 . He never forget Chitrangada or babruvahan.

He don't own responsibility of iravan coz it was not he who forced ulupi 4 relationship , it's vice versa

Regarding Abhimanyu & shrutkirti , his absence. In their life credit goes to yudhishthira , he was not responsible for dice game or was responsible for exile.

I fail to see where arjun is responsible for his absence in son's life.

If arjun is responsible then draupadi , bheem , nakul, Sahdev are also responsible for their absence in their children life coz I m sure they dint went 4 picnic but they suffered coz of only one person yudhishthira the decision maker .

.j

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

Arjun's absence in life of his sons was definitely not his fault .

Arjun can never stay in Manipur nor babruvahan can live indraprastha as per demand of Chitrangada's father , babruvahan should be out of kaurav pandav politics , but he did invited Chitrangada 4 rajsuya yagya , I guess she came 2 . He never forget Chitrangada or babruvahan.

He don't own responsibility of iravan coz it was not he who forced ulupi 4 relationship , it's vice versa

Regarding Abhimanyu & shrutkirti , his absence. In their life credit goes to yudhishthira , he was not responsible for dice game or was responsible for exile.

I fail to see where arjun is responsible for his absence in son's life.

If arjun is responsible then draupadi , bheem , nakul, Sahdev are also responsible for their absence in their children life coz I m sure they dint went 4 picnic but they suffered coz of only one person yudhishthira

.

Panchali objected. She actually had no choice PER LAW except to obey Yudhishtuira as per that immoral elder, Bheeshma. The rest did have a choice- social mores said they shouldn't disobey, but there was nothing LEGAL stopping them from thinking for themselves. So yes, Arjuna was at fault there. He should've remembered his children. Actually, Panchali says the younger brothers enabled Yudhishtira in his lunacy.