~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 52

Originally posted by: Chiillii

No Dashavatar dont follow darwins evolution.

Because if they did. With Matsya Vishnu there will be no Human Manu.

And there are not just ten aavtars. Vaishnava have 24 Avatars. We have hayagriva horse preceding Matsya.

And varaha comes first not Matsya...because this varaha kalpa. It starts with varaha avatar aparently. Vaivasvat manu the grandson of kashyap becomes the king and meets Matsya vishnu much later aftwr the earth has been settled.

And Vaivasvat manu inherits the earth from his grandfather Kashyapa who got the earth as donation from Parshuram who comes much later in the list and is a human.

And Bali the leader of asura in kurma avatar is a great grandson of hiranyakashyipu. The guy who was killed by narsimha a lion

so how can land based boar a mammal come before Matsya a fish and Parshuram a human. And how can you have greatgrandson with kurma and great grandfather with narsimha.

This is what happens when people start taking modern science theories and forcibly try to fit it to our scriptures and start claiming we were scientifically so advanced.

Puranas and vedas are not compendium of science. Vedas is a philosophical text based on nature worship. Puranas are historical accounts and stories embellished mythical and magical elements to bring the masses into a specific religious order.

Yes our religion is not antagonistic with science like abrahamic religions in the past.

We did have scholars who pursued science. But their texts are different and have nothing to do with religion.

We have rishi saunaka's texts on social studies and ethnocentric statistics, we have Aryabhatta and Varahimira works on mathematics and physics and astronomy

We have sulabha sutras on maths and chemistry and

We have charaka samhita on medicine and anatomy

Let us not make the same mistake that someone did of saying Ganesha's head replacement was first example of plastic surgery.

It makes us a laughing stock.

When people who dont even know what plastic surgery is or have not even read any of the scriptures be it vedas or puranas or ancient science books and then only based on stories they have heard or tv shows they have seen start making claims of science being taken from.vedas

I do not know about plastic surgery in Vedas so won't comment on that for sure.

About Dashavatar, I myself said that the number of Vishnu Avtar are very high, but only these 10 are selected and the order of the Avtars is changed to match the Darwin Theory. Every where we get the order as Matasya 1st and that proceeds despite that not being the correct order, so when was it actually altered was it after Darwin's discovery or before that

If it was before then there has to be some reason for altering. That actually was my question

That Ganesh being head transplanted was way too much. Even ourPM said it Once

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Agreed. Worst is, then even the genuine achievements get ignored. Atharva Veda and Sushruta Samhita have genuine scientific stuff (appropriate for era), but those get ignored because of idiotic claims.

Shustrat Samhita is respected through out medical community across the world

In fact Shustrat is one of the contenders for father of surgery.

Not sure about Atharva ved

People my question did Jaidrath vadh happen after sunset

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

New topic to debate:

Gandhari didn't intervene in her sons' misdeeds in childhood

She was clearly in dice hall and witnessed a sexual assault on another woman; didn't say a word until it looked like her sons might get into trouble.

After war, she went to Krishna with complaints, and this is what he says:

The holy one said, ‘Arise, arise, O Gandhari, do not set thy heart on grief! Through thy fault, this vast carnage has taken place! Thy son Duryodhana was wicked-souled, envious, and exceedingly arrogant. Applauding his wicked acts, thou regardest them to be good. Exceedingly cruel, he was the embodiment of hostilities, and disobedient to the injunctions of the old. Why dost thou wish to ascribe thy own faults to me? Dead or lost, the person that grieves for what has already occurred, obtaineth more grief. By indulging in grief, one increases it two-fold. A woman of the regenerate class bears children for the practice of austerities; the cow brings forth offspring for bearing burdens; the mare brings forth her young for acquiring speed of motion; the Shudra woman bears a child for adding to the number of servitors; the Vaishya woman for adding to the number of keepers of cattle. A princess, however, like thee, brings forth sons for being slaughtered!’"

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m11/m11025.htm

Krishna basically said it was Gandhari's fault her sons died.

Knowing all this, consider her curse: O Govinda, thou shalt be the slayer of thy own kinsmen! In the thirty-sixth year from this, O slayer of Madhu, thou shalt, after causing the slaughter of thy kinsmen and friends and sons, perish by disgusting means in the wilderness. The ladies of thy race, deprived of sons, kinsmen, and friends, shall weep and cry even as these ladies of the Bharata race!’"

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m11/m11024.htm

What are the chances she arranged something to happen in Dwaraka?

@Chiillii waiting your response on this

In my opinion Gandhari did not want to marry a blind man. She was however helpless as her own father and brother were very keen on this alliance.

If she was ok with her marriage she would have never blindfolded her eyes. A supportive and devoted wife of a blind man will become his eyes. That is how she will share his darkness and her light with him.

I think she blindfolded herself to show everyone that a blind dhritrashtra deserved a blind wife, not her. Her blindfold has more do with a belligerent attitude of entitlement, that she had the right to be wife of a healthy better man than dhritrashtra and that was denied to her.

Duryodhan was screwed born to her and Dhritrashtra.

Gandhari does seem to love Duryodhan and all her sons. And her sense of entitlement would have made her encourage Duryodhan to do whatever it takes to be the king.

However her curse to Krishna was a mother's anguish.

Yes the whole enmity was her sons' fault as well as her and her husbands who encouraged it since their childhood..

But the corpses of her sons as well as everyone elses must have shook her

I think she takes of her blind fold in the battle field. That is how she is able to make out the corpses lying there and the women weeping

Before cursing Krishna she not only points out her sons, she also does point out abhimanyu, karna shalya even other kings. Her pain at that point is genuine.

Most importantly, she was angry at Krishna because she knew that Krishna had the means and the opportunity to prevent the war. Pandavas had given him carteblanche rights to decide if at all they will fight.

He does the opposite because justice demanded it.

In any case she had that belligerent attitude that life had not been fair with her, then why should she be fair or just with anyone.

People we discuss a lot about Draupadi Agni birth, but what about Drona's birth? What do you think about it

Yadava were a ticking time bomb. Gandhari's or rishi's curses had nothing to do with the fratricide.

They were basically three clans fighting with each other for dominance, the Vrishni, Andhaka and Bhoja.

Vrishni had four major groups

First was led by Vasudev,

Second group of Satyaka aligned with him.

Third was led by satyabhama's father who was the richest yadava of the time.

Fourth was led by Akrura, they had the support of Kashi and Kosala kings.

Andhaka had two groups

Ugrasena with his son kansa supported by Jarasandh

Devaka with six daughters first being Devaki.

Then there were Bhoja led by Hridika whose two sons were shatadhanwa and kritaverma.

Shurasen vrishni was king of mathura,

He was ousted by Ugrasen and his brother Devaka both Andhaka yadavas. Ugrasen's son Kansa had Jarasandh as support.

Vasudev had to do a business of cattle rearing to live. When his cousin Satyaka helped him kidnap devaki and her sisters from their swayamvar who were going to marry Somdatta bahlika.. This was done to break the Andhaka brothers and get the throne

Kansa then inprisoned Vasudev. His father Ugrasen didnt want to go against his brother Devaka. So he was also removed from throne and Kansa took over.

At the time Bhoja Hridika and Vrishni Akrura supported him

Eventually Krishna and Balram killed Kansa, but they had no money or army and Jarasandh was on his way so as a truce they reinstate Ugrasena. All the Yadaavs unite against outsider Jarasandh but are not a match for him. So they leave for Dwarka.

Krishna gets Balram married to Revati and gets the land of Dwarka as dowry. But he still needs money.

In the meanwhile bulk of Satrajit Vrishni's money gets robbed and he suspects Krishna. But Krishna proves that it was his own brother who robbed him, gets his money returned and marries Satyabhama.

And gets to use the money to build Dwarka.

But Bhoja brothers Kritaverma and Shatadhanwa and Akrura were themselves trying to get Satyabhama and through her Satrajit's money. But Krishna marries her. So they kill Satrajit and loot his treasure.

Krishna was at the time at Varnavrat cremating Pandavas, when satyabhama runs to him for help. He and Balram then go after the three guys, Kritaverma escapes without notice, but his brother gets killed and Akrura escapes to Kashi with treasure.

Balram thinks Krishna found the treasurer but he let Akrura go and now plans to use it for himself to rule Dwarka. So he walks away angrily to mithila on self exile.

Eventually Vasudev and Ugrasen intervene, they offer Akrura and Kritaverma amnesty. They return. Krishna tackles Akrura and gets him to acknowledge he has the treasure. Then again for the sake of peace, makes him treasurer and gets him to use the money for Dwarka. Balram also returns by then.

However this truce is only on the surface. Internally there were frissions that kept surfacing from time to time.

Like when Salwa attacks Dwarka, Akrura and Kritaverma do not join in defending

Pradyumna Satyaki balram and krishna fight alone.

Eventually Kritaverma's son Bali manages to seduce and marry Krishna's daughter charumati against Krishna's wishes.

Balram himself had a lot of issues with Krishna. Not just suspecting him of using Satyabhama's wealth to take the throne from him, but he also kills Rukmi knowing fully well that he and Krishna had buried the hatchet and were cordial and friendly

He wanted to support Duryodhan by all means. His only problem was that Krishna was blocking him.

He still manages to get Vrishni army the narayani sena to Duryodhan, though he himself is unable to participate because of Krishna.

Kritaverma also joins Dury with his army. Only Satyaki takes his army to the pandava side.

Krishna's sons dont participate.

After Kurus and Pandavas and Panchals and practically every major kingdom were ruined in the war, The internal squabbles of Yadavas surfaced

Kritaverma killed Pradyumna, Satyaki killed Kritaverma in revenge, then Kritaverma's family attacked and killed Satyaki and Samba. Then Krishna killed kritaverma's family.

Eventually Balram and Krishna to gave up and died.

Gandhari was not needed for Yadaav fratricide. They were already having a tenous relationship that too because they were fighting for survival against established kingdoms. Once the threat that bound them ended they killed each other.

Duplicate post sorry

All the yadavas problems and stories is documented in harisvansh and vishnu puran, but their order is jumbled up.plus some part of it is in Mahbharat. And boons and curses and divine voices etc added as embellishment..plus a lot of white washing done for Vasudev and Balram because Krishna was made vishnu avatar for vaishnavas.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

All the yadavas problems and stories is documented in harisvansh and vishnu puran, but their order is jumbled up.plus some part of it is in Mahbharat. And boons and curses and divine voices etc added as embellishment..plus a lot of white washing done for Vasudev and Balram because Krishna was made vishnu avatar for vaishnavas.

Has there been some justification of Samb's misdeeds!