*edited* Any thoughts from Urdu speakers on Urdu in Bollywood songs? - Page 7

I feel, in olden days it was fashionable to throw in Urdu words to sound sophisticated. (Now English has replaced the Nawabi language).

From young, I heard Urdu is the most poetic language of India. I read about someone saying Lata Mangeshkar cannot pronounce Urdu properly and how she practiced hard to get the right diction.

I fancied Gulzar's songs and would look into Google to get every word of the song (even Hindi is not my mother tongue).

But now a days I feel, all these were just superficial. A set of elites called a particular language/pronunciation as "proper" and looked down at others (who were actually the majority).

In regional languages, Sanskritised versions were considered elite and used in poetry and songs.

In last decade, things got drastically changed in regional languages. Songs mainly use street language nowadays. Who got the right to decide what is poetic?

I had heard "Mei shayar to nahi" many times. But I had not listened to the entire song carefully. After Rishi's demise, I was playing the song. I got puzzled when I heard the word Kafir. I listened again.

Sochata Hun Agar Main Dua Maangata

Haath Apane Uthaakar Main Kya Maangata

Jab Se Tujh Se Mohabbat Main Karane Laga

Tab Se Aise Ibaadat Main Karane Laga

Main Qaafir To Nahin

Magar Ai Haseen

Jab Se Dekha Main Ne Tujh Ko Mujh Ko

Bandagi Aa Gai

----

Character is a Raj Nath. Woh bhagwan ko haat jod ke maangtaa hei. Haat utaake nahi. Whether the lyricist (Anand Bhakshi) or anyone in the team (Raj Kapoor) did not realise the absurdity of these lyrics?

To me relevant street language is better than irrelevant sohphisticasy (however beautiful the language claims itself to be).

Originally posted by: --Pro.vo.King--

Again .. There are not only two but multiple ways about it .. As for Hindi teachers , they have to stick to the standardized and most accepted ways of pronounciation and even there if the Hindi teacher belongs to the same region where words are pronounced differently , chances are the regional version of words will be taught in the class .. If a region in specific pronounces "Shiv" as "Siv" , then it is "Siv" for them and that doesn't make it wrong .. Thats just how it is .. As for taking offence , i think you got that one wrong as well .. it is the "purists" that are taking offense here .. well , purists can go take a hike .. 😆

Lol...u r missing the point here quixotic.....I am just saying that in Hindi.....u can pronounce the written word in only ONE way.....I am not saying that people in their daily lives are wrong if they pronounce it differently.....as long as I understand what a person is saying I am fine......but pronouncing SHIV as SIV is wrong....if in a region pronounces it as SIV ....then it should be written as SIV.....and I am talking about Hindi only......In Hindi we have an alphabet for SH and S...so there is no room for a mix up...similarly we have an alphabet for the hard D and the soft D, alphabets for hard T and soft T.....we have alphabets for different sounds...so that is the reason.....SHIV and SIV will be pronounced differently....chalo...end of discussion WITH YOU from my side....since you are totally missing the point I am trying to make.🤔

OK just out of curiosity....can members who speak and write other languages like Tamil, Telugu or Marathi or any other language , please tell me.....can you pronounce a word in different ways like we can do in English or is it just one way to pronounce the written word?

Originally posted by: blue-ice.1

OK just out of curiosity....can members who speak and write other languages like Tamil, Telugu or Marathi or any other language , please tell me.....can you pronounce a word in different ways like we can do in English or is it just one way to pronounce the written word?

I can speak fluent Marathi (not my mother tongue), and there are 2 ways the letter च is pronounced. First is what is used in Hindi and the second is a little difficult to pronounce. However apart from that one exception, you pronounce EXACTLY as you write, as far as I know!

Originally posted by: tapori

I can speak fluent Marathi (not my mother tongue), and there are 2 ways the letter च is pronounced. First is what is used in Hindi and the second is a little difficult to pronounce. However apart from that one exception, you pronounce EXACTLY as you write, as far as I know!

Marathi has Devnagri lipi?

Originally posted by: flipfl0p

To me relevant street language is better than irrelevant sohphisticasy (however beautiful the language claims itself to be).

I think you missed the intention of this post. Also I DON'T think Urdu is more beautiful or sophisticated. But each language demands respect.

This thread is for those who know Urdu, and for their opinions on Bollywood singers, specifically when it comes to pronouncing Urdu words. Think of it like someone opening a thread to discuss how Udit Narayan pronounces songs in your mother tongue. It doesn't mean your language is the best. It's just a discussion. You are well within your rights to dislike any language, but there will be others who might like it and see the beauty in it. Peace!

Originally posted by: blue-ice.1

Marathi has Devnagri lipi?

That is what is used nowadays. Unfortunately Devnagari doesn't have a letter for that sound, so we use च to represent it.

Originally posted by: blue-ice.1

OK just out of curiosity....can members who speak and write other languages like Tamil, Telugu or Marathi or any other language , please tell me.....can you pronounce a word in different ways like we can do in English or is it just one way to pronounce the written word?

South Indian language’s script looks different. But vocally we sound similar to Sanskrit. There is only one way of pronouncing it. (Rigid sound structure is common with all Indian languages).

I think Tamil does not have a letter for “Sh”. They only have “S”. Similarly they don’t have “Ka”. They have only “Ga”. Most of Tamil vocabulary does not need these letters. So if a villager uses these “foreign sounds” (non native/non Tamil), he will mix it up. (Shiv becomes Siv).

Just like Persian (which uses “f” and “z” sounds), we do have sounds that are unfamiliar to Hindi speaking people. We also have specific letter to denote those sounds.

For example, My language has a specific “La” sound which is different (and apart) from Hindi/English “La”. We have a specific letter to denote it. (It was in original Sanskrit. Later dropped down in Hindi).

Sometimes Tamilians use “zh” in English to note that special “La” . Actually Tamil itself is mispronounced by outsiders. It is the other “l” in the word.

Similarly Tamil has one special type of “Ra” apart from the usual “Ra”. But Hindi/English does not use that sound in their language. They cannot differentiate between two sounds (Two different “La”s and two different “Ra”s) either.

Hindi does not use (for that matter, any Indian language) “f” and “z” sounds in their vocabulary. So it was not required for Hindi to have equivalent letter for “z” and “f”.
Add to that, the rigid structure of pronouncing the letter, it gets difficult to reproduce those words in our language. Unless one is familiar with those words, it is difficult to make out how they sound from the script. Be it Persian or Tamil.

My funda is simple. Either accept Zindagi = Jindagi.

If you have trouble with the way people pronounce it, don’t bring in Zindagi at all.
But pulling that word in vocabulary, then telling people that they cannot pronounce properly is not done.

Don’t create hierarchy between people because they can’t pronounce a word, which was not native to begin with. No Hindi person is looked down because they cannot pronounce “Tamil” properly.

Originally posted by: flipfl0p

South Indian language’s script looks different. But vocally we sound similar to Sanskrit. There is only one way of pronouncing it. (Rigid sound structure is common with all Indian languages).

I think Tamil does not have a letter for “Sh”. They only have “S”. Similarly they don’t have “Ka”. They have only “Ga”. Most of Tamil vocabulary does not need these letters. So if a villager uses these “foreign sounds” (non native/non Tamil), he will mix it up. (Shiv becomes Siv).

Just like Persian (which uses “f” and “z” sounds), we do have sounds that are unfamiliar to Hindi speaking people. We also have specific letter to denote those sounds.

For example, My language has a specific “La” sound which is different (and apart) from Hindi/English “La”. We have a specific letter to denote it. (It was in original Sanskrit. Later dropped down in Hindi).

Sometimes Tamilians use “zh” in English to note that special “La” . Actually Tamil itself is mispronounced by outsiders. It is the other “l” in the word.

Similarly Tamil has one special type of “Ra” apart from the usual “Ra”. But Hindi/English does not use that sound in their language. They cannot differentiate between two sounds (Two different “La”s and two different “Ra”s) either.

Hindi does not use (for that matter, any Indian language) “f” and “z” sounds in their vocabulary. So it was not required for Hindi to have equivalent letter for “z” and “f”.
Add to that, the rigid structure of pronouncing the letter, it gets difficult to reproduce those words in our language. Unless one is familiar with those words, it is difficult to make out how they sound from the script. Be it Persian or Tamil.

My funda is simple. Either accept Zindagi = Jindagi.

If you have trouble with the way people pronounce it, don’t bring in Zindagi at all.
But pulling that word in vocabulary, then telling people that they cannot pronounce properly is not done.

Don’t create hierarchy between people because they can’t pronounce a word, which was not native to begin with. No Hindi person is looked down because they cannot pronounce “Tamil” properly.

If by La you're talking about ळ then it is still present in Sanskrit. And also used in Marathi. Though there are other La versions like the palam one from Malayalam which I find difficult to pronounce.

Discussing pronunciation shouldn't belittle anyone.

Originally posted by: tapori

I think you missed the intention of this post. Also I DON'T think Urdu is more beautiful or sophisticated. But each language demands respect.

This thread is for those who know Urdu, and for their opinions on Bollywood singers, specifically when it comes to pronouncing Urdu words. Think of it like someone opening a thread to discuss how Udit Narayan pronounces songs in your mother tongue. It doesn't mean your language is the best. It's just a discussion. You are well within your rights to dislike any language, but there will be others who might like it and see the beauty in it. Peace!

I did not say that, “you said” Urdu is most beautiful.

I said that was the convention in India till a decade. I said, even I was following the same convention, trying to understand the Urdu words in Gulzar poetry.

I don’t dislike Urdu or English. But I am against common people getting graded because of their language/accent.

There was a time when Kangana was mocked for her English. That was just an elitist attitude, which many nepotistic kids harbour in Bollywood. What is so great about Shashi Tharoor’s English? He had different schooling than she had. That’s it. That does not mean, I dislike English.

Till English replaced it, Urdu enjoyed this elite status in India. (Like “this person has such impeccable Urdu” etc). My rant is only against this special status. Not against any language.

I like Jackie Shoff’s style best. Yes. His Urdu/English/Hindi nothing might be great. But he cuts it straight.

(I did say “la” sound exists in Sanskrit. I said, it is not available in Hindi)