Things which made you uncomfortable in Mahabharata - Page 7

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

After reading the conversation here and inputs about Shikhandi I accept my loss, Bheeshm fall has been highlighted unduly probably because the Pandavas loved him.

He wasn't killed by any kind of treachery. He wasn't that great of a soldier as it's claimed to be (at least wasn't so at the age he was fighting). Shikhandi or no Shikhandi is completely irrelevant here.

Arjun killed him in a proper warfare, he took time just because he didn't want to harm Bheeshm

If at all we have to consider the relevance of Shikhandi then it's just that Bheeshm and Arjun came up to a consensus that instead of killing/targeting him directly, he would do so behind Shikhandi so that a message might be propagated that Arjun couldn't have defeated Bheeshm, he could do so only because Bheeshm couldn't attack someone he considered a female (Shikhandi)

Shikhandi basically was nothing but just a face saving for Bheeshm

Actually later passages say Shikhandi killed Bheeshma. It's only Bheeshma who suggests the opposite. Satyaki, during the argument post Drona, accuses Panchal brothers of killing both Bheeshma and Drona. And I vaguely remember a post war scene where Krishna tells Balram Shikhandi killed Bheeshma.

My feeling is that Bheeshma, after his fall, asked Pandavas to put about the story because he didn't want to admit defeat to an effeminate/gay/trans man.

Two things which disturbed me, both in Sabha parva:

1. This is something I just noticed just now:

Vaisampayana continued,--'Unto Krishna who was thus weeping and crying piteously, looking at times upon her helpless lord, Dussasana spake many disagreeable and harsh words. And beholding her who was then in her season thus dragged, and her upper garments loosened, beholding her in that condition which she little deserved, Vrikodara afflicted beyond endurance, his eyes fixed upon Yudhishthira, gave way to wrath."

So, if Draupadi was in a single piece of cloth & if by "upper garments" it means pallu & blouse being loosened...well I leave it to your imagination exactly what was her state.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02066.htm

2. This is the night before the Dyut Sabha & dice game. The Pandavas along with Draupadi have just arrived at Hastinapur:

"And then eating food that was of the best taste they retired to their chambers for the night. And those bulls among the Kurus then were put to sleep with music by handsome females. And obtaining from them what came in due succession, those subjugators of hostile towns passed with cheerful hearts that delightful night in pleasure and sport."

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02057.htm

Oh, they all had pleasure women. That's why the manly needs theory for Arjuna's exile doesn't compute for me. It was a punishment IMO.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

What's more... it's not as if Bheeshma was unaware of his authority in court. It would've even been more understandable if he stayed silent. But he actively argued for the other side.

His words during Shishupal vadh episode are even more astounding. In the same speech, he manages to praise and deride Krishna.

I think smBheeshma was playing both sides. I forget which author now... there is a theory out there he was so outraged by what Satyavati pulled he simply decided to sit back and let her progeny kill each other.

If he actually thought so then he succeeded.

Pandavas were not biological progeny of Satyavati

Originally posted by: Eloquent

Two things which disturbed me, both in Sabha parva:

1. This is something I just noticed just now:

Vaisampayana continued,--'Unto Krishna who was thus weeping and crying piteously, looking at times upon her helpless lord, Dussasana spake many disagreeable and harsh words. And beholding her who was then in her season thus dragged, and her upper garments loosened, beholding her in that condition which she little deserved, Vrikodara afflicted beyond endurance, his eyes fixed upon Yudhishthira, gave way to wrath."

So, if Draupadi was in a single piece of cloth & if by "upper garments" it means pallu & blouse being loosened...well I leave it to your imagination exactly what was her state.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02066.htm

2. This is the night before the Dyut Sabha & dice game. The Pandavas along with Draupadi have just arrived at Hastinapur:

"And then eating food that was of the best taste they retired to their chambers for the night. And those bulls among the Kurus then were put to sleep with music by handsome females. And obtaining from them what came in due succession, those subjugators of hostile towns passed with cheerful hearts that delightful night in pleasure and sport."

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02057.htm

At the first point, so she was,, I always wondered if Dusshashan was unable to get the ends of her Sari why didn't he at least try removing upper portion I guess he didn't need to do that.

Second point. What do you think were the Dasis the slave women for?? Definitely not for cleaning the utensils and mopping dusting, these things could have been easily done by Sevikas or servants

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Actually later passages say Shikhandi killed Bheeshma. It's only Bheeshma who suggests the opposite. Satyaki, during the argument post Drona, accuses Panchal brothers of killing both Bheeshma and Drona. And I vaguely remember a post war scene where Krishna tells Balram Shikhandi killed Bheeshma.

My feeling is that Bheeshma, after his fall, asked Pandavas to put about the story because he didn't want to admit defeat to an effeminate/gay/trans man.

From the reading of day 10, it's highly likely for someone to come to the conclusion that Shikhandi's presence or absence would've made zilch difference. There's just one instance of Bhishma refusing to fire a divine weapon against Arjuna upon beholding Shikhandi.

Overall, it looks like Shikhandi was included on Bhishma's suggestion to fulfil the purpose of the reincarnation. Bhishma desired a release.

When Ganga laments her son's loss, Krishna tells her that Arjuna killed her son, not Shikhandi.

Krishna said, 'O amiable one, be comforted. Do not yield to grief, O thou of beautiful features! Without doubt, thy son has gone to the highest region of felicity! He was one of the Vasus of great energy. Through a curse, O thou of beautiful features, he had to take birth among men. It behoveth thee not to grieve for him. Agreeably to Kshatriya duties, he was slain by Dhananjaya on the field of battle while engaged in battle. He has not been slain, O goddess, by Sikhandin.

^ Agreeably to kshatriya duties also eliminates deceit.

Originally posted by: Wistfulness

Your theories are astounding. But I hardly see any evidence for this one. 🤔

From the reading of day 10, it's highly likely for someone to come to the conclusion that Shikhandi's presence or absence would've made zilch difference. There's just one instance of Bhishma refusing to fire a divine weapon against Arjuna upon beholding Shikhandi.

Overall, it looks like Shikhandi was included on Bhishma's suggestion to fulfil the purpose of the reincarnation. Bhishma desired a release.

When Ganga laments her son's loss, Krishna tells her that Arjuna killed her son, not Shikhandi.

Krishna said, 'O amiable one, be comforted. Do not yield to grief, O thou of beautiful features! Without doubt, thy son has gone to the highest region of felicity! He was one of the Vasus of great energy. Through a curse, O thou of beautiful features, he had to take birth among men. It behoveth thee not to grieve for him. Agreeably to Kshatriya duties, he was slain by Dhananjaya on the field of battle while engaged in battle. He has not been slain, O goddess, by Sikhandin.

^ Agreeably to kshatriya duties also eliminates deceit.

Thou hast charged Partha, that bull among men, with the slaughter of Bhishma. The latter, however, viz., that illustrious personage, himself accomplished his own death. Truly speaking, the uterine brother, (viz., Sikhandin), that foremost of all sinners, was the cause of Bhishma's death. There is none in the world that is more sinful than the sons of the Panchala king. Thy father had created Sikhandin for the destruction of Bhishma. As regards Arjuna, he had only, protected Sikhandin while Sikhandin became the cause of the illustrious Bhishma's death

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07195.htm

"Vasudeva said, 'The feats were highly wonderful that were achieved by those high-souled Kshatriyas. In consequence of their large number, they are incapable of being enumerated in even hundreds of years. I shall however, mention only the foremost of them. Do thou listen, therefore, to me as I mention in brief those feats achieved by the kings of Earth. O thou of godlike splendour. Bhishma of Kuru's race became the generalissimo, having eleven divisions of the Kaurava princes under his command, like Vasava of the celestial forces. 1 Sikhandin of great intelligence, protected by the blessed Arjuna, became the leader of the seven divisions of the sons of Pandu. The battle between the Kurus and the Pandavas (under these leaders) raged for ten days. It was so fierce as to make one's hair stand on its end. Then Sikhandin, in great battle, aided by the wielder of Gandiva, slew, with innumerable arrows, the son of Ganga fighting bravely. Lying on a bed of arrows, Bhishma waited like an ascetic till the sun leaving his southward path entered on his northerly course when that hero gave up his life-breaths.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14060.htm

P.S. If I theorize without background, I try to remember and specify it is conjecture.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Thou hast charged Partha, that bull among men, with the slaughter of Bhishma. The latter, however, viz., that illustrious personage, himself accomplished his own death. Truly speaking, the uterine brother, (viz., Sikhandin), that foremost of all sinners, was the cause of Bhishma's death. There is none in the world that is more sinful than the sons of the Panchala king. Thy father had created Sikhandin for the destruction of Bhishma. As regards Arjuna, he had only, protected Sikhandin while Sikhandin became the cause of the illustrious Bhishma's death

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07195.htm

I have to locate the other part where Krishna says Shikhandi killed Bheeshma.

P.S. If I theorize without background, I try to remember and specify it is conjecture.

Moving over these statements, the vivid descriptions of the fierce battle made it clear that it was between Bhishma and Arjuna with Shikhandi managing to shoot arrows on stray occasions.

@Bold - Ofcourse!

Originally posted by: Wistfulness

Even if Krishna said that, he himself contradicted the statement.

Moving over these statements, the vivid descriptions of the fierce battle made it clear that it was between Bhishma and Arjuna with Shikhandi managing to shoot arrows on stray occasions.

@Bold - Ofcourse!

It seems both Arjun and Shikhandi were shooting arrows on Bheeshm and no one were sure on whose arrow did strike Shikhandi

Originally posted by: Wistfulness

Even if Krishna said that, he himself contradicted the statement.

Moving over these statements, the vivid descriptions of the fierce battle made it clear that it was between Bhishma and Arjuna with Shikhandi managing to shoot arrows on stray occasions.

@Bold - Ofcourse!

Here it is (I edited the other post after you responded):

"Vasudeva said, 'The feats were highly wonderful that were achieved by those high-souled Kshatriyas. In consequence of their large number, they are incapable of being enumerated in even hundreds of years. I shall however, mention only the foremost of them. Do thou listen, therefore, to me as I mention in brief those feats achieved by the kings of Earth. O thou of godlike splendour. Bhishma of Kuru's race became the generalissimo, having eleven divisions of the Kaurava princes under his command, like Vasava of the celestial forces. 1 Sikhandin of great intelligence, protected by the blessed Arjuna, became the leader of the seven divisions of the sons of Pandu. The battle between the Kurus and the Pandavas (under these leaders) raged for ten days. It was so fierce as to make one's hair stand on its end. Then Sikhandin, in great battle, aided by the wielder of Gandiva, slew, with innumerable arrows, the son of Ganga fighting bravely. Lying on a bed of arrows, Bhishma waited like an ascetic till the sun leaving his southward path entered on his northerly course when that hero gave up his life-breaths.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14060.htm

I think Krishna was pacifying Ganga by the prior statement. It must have been embarrassing to be beaten by someone society considered an outcast. Arjuna plainly didn't want to kill his family. The only ones he seemed to have no qualms eliminating were Jayadrath and Karna.

I find Arjuna's pacifism quite great actually. A man who can kill, who knows who can kill, but would prefer peace... what's not to like? Of course it can get problematic if overdone.