Ques on MahaBhrarta. Peep in/ DT Nt pg 25 - Page 25

See the notion woman is a property of man is seen throughout Mahabharata albeit subtetly till panchali disrobing happens. Now if you see Panchali is called a prostitute because she has 5 husbands and the woman is steadfast loyal to them. She doesnt have a 6th one though she is asked what difference it makes.

Now if you see those days men could marry multiple times and most important ambika and ambalika were impregnated by vyasa not their husband despite their reservations. They were forced to have relation with him as kingdom needed heir. So it was acceptable for a woman to have a relation outside wedlock if it served man's purpose. Vyasa himself was the son of Satyavati from Rishi Parashara out of wedlock but none questions Satyavati because she was Shantanu's weakness and Bhishma lived on her orders. Even Kunti begets sons from god's and not her husband. None of these women are questioned about their chastity or morality as they serve man purpose.

But Panchali is questioned because she challenges a man's world, she exposes the hypocrisy of a man's world. Like other women her relation with more than one man is not behind curtain but in front in open as her husband.

Again when she is kept pawn she asks did the king keep himself first or me. A clear indication she asserting her independance as an individual in the open court. Its Panchali individuality that's against man's world that gets the mahabharata rolling. She goes against the flow and the change happens. She fights for her choice, her dignity and the change happens.

Originally posted by: shruthiravi

See the notion woman is a property of man is seen throughout Mahabharata albeit subtetly till panchali disrobing happens. Now if you see Panchali is called a prostitute because she has 5 husbands and the woman is steadfast loyal to them. She doesnt have a 6th one though she is asked what difference it makes.

Now if you see those days men could marry multiple times and most important ambika and ambalika were impregnated by vyasa not their husband despite their reservations. They were forced to have relation with him as kingdom needed heir. So it was acceptable for a woman to have a relation outside wedlock if it served man's purpose. Vyasa himself was the son of Satyavati from Rishi Parashara out of wedlock but none questions Satyavati because she was Shantanu's weakness and Bhishma lived on her orders. Even Kunti begets sons from god's and not her husband. None of these women are questioned about their chastity or morality as they serve man purpose.

But Panchali is questioned because she challenges a man's world, she exposes the hypocrisy of a man's world. Like other women her relation with more than one man is not behind curtain but in front in open as her husband.

Again when she is kept pawn she asks did the king keep himself first or me. A clear indication she asserting her independance as an individual in the open court. Its Panchali individuality that's against man's world that gets the mahabharata rolling. She goes against the flow and the change happens. She fights for her choice, her dignity and the change happens.

About Ambalika and Ambika having a kid by Vyasa, well they had it by Niyog and not Sambhog(the term used for the marital relation between husband and wife) though a process of Niyog isn't defined in epic but it definitely isn't the same as Sambhog or else there wasn't a need for another word to be used. In Jain scriptures however there is a totally different story. Vyas rishi asks both Ambika and Ambalika to cross naked through the room to conceive. First Ambalika crosses and she is very reluctant and shy crossing it, she gets white out of fear since it wasn't easy for the woman to cross a man who is her Jyeshtha all naked, hence her son (Pandu) is weak and pale (has jaundice kind of decease at birth) she told about her feelings to Ambika and she thought of an idea to ignore the person sitting in the room. She closed her eyes as she entered and crossed confidentiality, this resulted in a son (Dhritrashtra) who was physically powerful but without vision.

Parisharmi ji then told that their behaviour wasn't right and they should have gone confidently for she feared that their reluctance might have affected the chance of them conceiving. To encourage them she demonstrates the act with confidence with her eyes wide open. Her intention during this walk was just to demonstrate the queens and encourage them to retry and to fulfill her duties. Therefore the son (Vidur) she begot was confident, dharmic and most powerful in his generation.

When it came to Kunti and Madri they took their sons from gods as blessings by their will

Satyavati was always open about her bearing a son for Rishi Parashar and was actually proud that a great Rishi like him chose a Nishad kanya like her to bear his child. This was long before Shantanu approached her. She never felt the need of hiding her Kaneen(not marital) son unlike Kunti. The reason being that while Satyavati's son's father whole heartedly accepted his son and gave him his name, Suryadev couldn't do that even if he wished for Karna. Probably in those days the Kaneen children whose father accepted them in front of the world were accepted but those whose father weren't known were not, and such women were considered characterless

Anyhow coming to the topic, None of these acts were within the close doors, all were done in public and with the will of the girls involved (you might say that Ambika and Ambalika weren't willing for it, but they were not forced to approach Rishi Vyas, yes Satyavati asked them but even they wanted to get a son.) Their consent was always there and I don't think a consenting relation between two adults should be of any issue to anyone and that's the reason it wasn't.

Draupadi's case however was different, she was staked without her knowledge, (a contrast to the Pandav brothers, they knew that they are being staked and did have time to come to term with what might happen.) Suddenly out of nowhere a man enters her room to drag her to the royal court in a half clad attire just to be informed that she has been staked and lost in the game. And that now she is a dasi.

How much we condemn what Duryodhan Karna and Dusshashan do, but in the royal court she was brought as a Dasi a slave women who didn't have any right (or maybe some rights if we compare with slaves in other civilizations). Now the trio decided to do what they always wanted to do, humiliate Pandavas and what better a way than to say bad words to their wife who now was their slave. In this entire episode her consent was lacking which makes it the worst act of Mahabharata.

However despite being her owner Duryodhan didn't have the right to disrobe her publicly, (although he could do that in private had there been her consent) but he decided to do that. His going beyond his limit, gave Draupadi the opportunity to execute the limited right Manusmriti gives to slave women- immidiate freedom and a compensation of her choice, which she selected as the freedom of her husbands.

She did make a noise, voiced up her opinion in the most powerful possible way, but practically it did not have any impact except for the revelation that no one excluding Vidur ji and Vikarna were worth being called humans in the Sabha

P.S. sorry for the long reply

@flauntpessismism see the way u see MB and I see it are different. For you Niyog is acceptable but for me changing the word from sambhog to niyog doesnt make it acceptable to the fact that ambika and ambalika got their kids not from their husbands. And I take it as when man's need needs to be fulfilled he twists words to serve his purpose and the women who obeys it are not castarcized. so wherever men's silent approval is there woman crossing the line of maryada of whatever u may call or even that can be called maryada as men wants it. And Manusmriti it doesnt give any freedom to normal women. Dont tell me it asks ppl to treat women as Goddess. Then says protect the lady. A lady doesnt need protection, neither she needs to be treated a Goddess. What she wants is respect ,and empowerement to make her own choices as Swami Vivekananda said.

Originally posted by: shruthiravi

@flauntpessismism see the way u see MB and I see it are different. For you Niyog is acceptable but for me changing the word from sambhog to niyog doesnt make it acceptable to the fact that ambika and ambalika got their kids not from their husbands. And I take it as when man's need needs to be fulfilled he twists words to serve his purpose and the women who obeys it are not castarcized. so wherever men's silent approval is there woman crossing the line of maryada of whatever u may call or even that can be called maryada as men wants it. And Manusmriti it doesnt give any freedom to normal women. Dont tell me it asks ppl to treat women as Goddess. Then says protect the lady. A lady doesnt need protection, neither she needs to be treated a Goddess. What she wants is respect ,and empowerement to make her own choices as Swami Vivekananda said.

I think you didn't get my point, I am not saying that using a word Niyog instead of Sambhog makes it acceptable, what I meant was that possibly Niyog was a process different from Sambhog. Maybe some kind of semi test tube surgery in its primitive form or some art that we have lost by now. Completely my opinion, I am not saying it certainly was so, just an assumption.

Anyhow in the case of Ambika and Ambalika it wasn't a man's need but that of a woman (i.e.) Satyavati, she had earlier approached Devrat for the Niyog but he denied since it hampered his Pratigya, then she approached Vyasji who agreed for it and so did both the queens.

What I mean to say is that it was completely a mutual decision (even if we assume that the process for Niyog is the same as Sambhog) you can not say that it was made acceptable only to fulfill a man's desire because here it wasn't so. People had options and they opted for it. Being the mother of a kid excluding your husband if you do it willfully isn't exploitation. It's simply exercising your rights.

What Draupadi did in the Sabha was definitely not what the men liked yet she remained Maryadit. Despite getting the knowledge that Kunti had an illegitimate son, no one doubted her Maryada

Manusmriti has definitely given less rights to women but it hasn't taken away the freedom in anyway

wow nice discussions everybody. Keep it going!

Guys are you familiar with the concept of ego death or Nirvana?

Originally posted by: Y12345

Guys are you familiar with the concept of ego death or Nirvana?

Ego death is a "complete loss of subjective self-identity".In psychology, the synonymous term psychic death is used, which refers to a fundamental transformation of the psyche, the self.

The ego holds us back because it puts a lens of duality over the real world. Instead of seeing life as it is, the ego tends to divide concepts into two opposite sides: left and right, right and wrong, love and hate, peace, and war etc.

These divisions bring suffering to our lives. Instead of seeing everyone as equals, the ego forces us to categorize, making greater and lesser people, experiences, thoughts, places, and emotions.

The ego forces us to think that some things are wrong and some are right, thus breeding hatred and resentment amongst humanity.

But there are some of us who live without these artificial borders, and these are those who have experienced what is known as the ego death.

Before we talk about what ego death is, we need to understand the ego first.

It’s our beliefs we have about our personality, talents, abilities, life experience, relationships etc.

It’s the mental construct of our “self”.

The kinds of thoughts that contribute to the ego are,

“I’m smart”
“I’m emotionally mature”.
“I am better than most people at writing”.

The ego hides behind that “I” and “me” in those thoughts and statements about our identity.

The ego is difficult to see. It appears as real because it’s our attachment to descriptions of our identity – and we use our ego to understand the world.

The death of the ego isn’t truly a death, as the ego will always be a part of us.

Instead, it’s more like a transcendence, we evolve beyond the shackles of our ego and leave it behind, learning to control our lives without its influence.

When we leave behind the ego in ego death, we return to our True Nature and learn to live beyond the confines of the ego’s dualistic reality.

But this experience can be both beautiful and terrifying, depending on how ready the individual is to let go of their ego.

For some, this complete loss of identity can be the most petrifying experience ever, because the ego’s defense mechanism kicks in to keep itself attached to its person.

But for others, the death of the ego is just another step on a lifelong path of spirituality.

According to the spiritual psychoanalysis.... there are the 7 steps of ego death:

Let us see those---

The spiritual awakening... which means -- What am I here? What is my purpose? What am I supposed to do?

This awakening occurs when we begin to feel that we have a void in our life that we cannot fil maybe because of the depression and feelings of being lost!

Away from our own self --- We are in complete despair, and we know that something has to happen in our life, something drastic and meaningful, but we don’t understand what that something has to be.

We become isolated from others and even ourselves to know what it is.

Exploration--- We'd like to try to understand what we are feeling. We start to try filling that void with things we might have once found silly or ludicrous. We experiment with the mystic arts, astrology, energy healing, and practices that focus on connecting the mind, body, and soul.

A glimpse of enlightenment-- the next stage is , we experience our first, small glimpse of enlightenment, also known as “satori”--- the sudden enlightenment. We take a look into our True Nature during our exploration and become terrified of this experience. This fear can push us away from further exploration or make us want to find out more!! Depends on our mental strength.

The next stage is Soul's growth-- This step can take months if not years, and this is when our soul begins to mature. We develop the ability to understand what spiritual practices work for us and which have no effect on us.

Complete surrender --- Now we let go. We have become intimately familiar with our soul and our ego, and we surrender everything that is not part of our True Nature, but things created by our ego.

To make it more effective, we must trust what we do not know and let go of the fears brought to us by our ego.

The demise of ego , the ultimate end--- We have explored, grown, and surrendered, and thus evolved beyond our ego.

We understand what we were searching for in the beginning, and we see the illusions in the form of I&ME.

The Truth is in us now, and we know that the ego should not define who we are; the ego should exist simply as a tool to be used whenever needed. Who We Are is something much greater, the self-realization is the ultimate reality/ result of ego death.

Originally posted by: Viswasruti

The Ego death means, freedom from self, from dualistic reality!

Ego death is a "complete loss of subjective self-identity".In psychology, the synonymous term psychic death is used, which refers to a fundamental transformation of the psyche, the self.

The ego holds us back because it puts a lens of duality over the real world. Instead of seeing life as it is, the ego tends to divide concepts into two opposite sides: left and right, right and wrong, love and hate, peace, and war etc.

These divisions bring suffering to our lives. Instead of seeing everyone as equals, the ego forces us to categorize, making greater and lesser people, experiences, thoughts, places, and emotions.

The ego forces us to think that some things are wrong and some are right, thus breeding hatred and resentment amongst humanity.

But there are some of us who live without these artificial borders, and these are those who have experienced what is known as the ego death.

Before we talk about what ego death is, we need to understand the ego first.

It’s our beliefs we have about our personality, talents, abilities, life experience, relationships etc.

It’s the mental construct of our “self”.

The kinds of thoughts that contribute to the ego are,

“I’m smart”
“I’m emotionally mature”.
“I am better than most people at writing”.

The ego hides behind that “I” and “me” in those thoughts and statements about our identity.

The ego is difficult to see. It appears as real because it’s our attachment to descriptions of our identity – and we use our ego to understand the world.

The death of the ego isn’t truly a death, as the ego will always be a part of us.

Instead, it’s more like a transcendence, we evolve beyond the shackles of our ego and leave it behind, learning to control our lives without its influence.

When we leave behind the ego in ego death, we return to our True Nature and learn to live beyond the confines of the ego’s dualistic reality.

But this experience can be both beautiful and terrifying, depending on how ready the individual is to let go of their ego.

For some, this complete loss of identity can be the most petrifying experience ever, because the ego’s defense mechanism kicks in to keep itself attached to its person.

But for others, the death of the ego is just another step on a lifelong path of spirituality.

According to the spiritual psychoanalysis.... there are the 7 steps of ego death:

Let us see those---

The spiritual awakening... which means -- What am I here? What is my purpose? What am I supposed to do?

This awakening occurs when we begin to feel that we have a void in our life that we cannot fil maybe because of the depression and feelings of being lost!

Away from our own self --- We are in complete despair, and we know that something has to happen in our life, something drastic and meaningful, but we don’t understand what that something has to be.

We become isolated from others and even ourselves to know what it is.

Exploration--- We'd like to try to understand what we are feeling. We start to try filling that void with things we might have once found silly or ludicrous. We experiment with the mystic arts, astrology, energy healing, and practices that focus on connecting the mind, body, and soul.

A glimpse of enlightenment-- the next stage is , we experience our first, small glimpse of enlightenment, also known as “satori”--- the sudden enlightenment. We take a look into our True Nature during our exploration and become terrified of this experience. This fear can push us away from further exploration or make us want to find out more!! Depends on our mental strength.

The next stage is Soul's growth-- This step can take months if not years, and this is when our soul begins to mature. We develop the ability to understand what spiritual practices work for us and which have no effect on us.

Complete surrender --- Now we let go. We have become intimately familiar with our soul and our ego, and we surrender everything that is not part of our True Nature, but things created by our ego.

To make it more effective, we must trust what we do not know and let go of the fears brought to us by our ego.

The demise of ego , the ultimate end--- We have explored, grown, and surrendered, and thus evolved beyond our ego.

We understand what we were searching for in the beginning, and we see the illusions in the form of I&ME.

The Truth is in us now, and we know that the ego should not define who we are; the ego should exist simply as a tool to be used whenever needed. Who We Are is something much greater, the self-realization is the ultimate reality/ result of ego death.

just beautiful!!!

Thank you!!

Have you ever experienced something like this?

Which part of MB we come across ego death concept?

Viswasruti beautiful. I feel I have taken 3 steps and somewhere in 4th stage as I am continuing exploration but its difficult because as u said ego comes. It creates emotional upheaval. But believe me I am trying to elevate myself.