Mastani, Rakma Bai Pg30 | All about MASTANI, Chimaji, Nana Saheb Pg31 - Page 23

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398242

Inactive

Posted: 6 years ago

Originally posted by: history_geek

Thanks for sharing this beautiful snippet. I remember saving 4-5 pictures of this village from where Kashi Bai belonged. Will search. The entrance door of this village is quite grand, though the place itself lies in obscurity.

I am pasting the article you shared, here also. :)

thanks abhay for posting topic shared by me here

there is near chaskaman dam which is famous.

would like to read more from you.

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398242

Inactive

Posted: 6 years ago

Originally posted by: history_geek

The child artist playing Kashi is no more there. A new girl has entered. Hopefully, this would make you happy, Maddy. Lol.

About the shaping of Kashi's character - It seems, she would be shown having respect for Peshwa family except Baji (in the start). I guess, they are doing this to maintain that banter between Baji and Kashi. And slowly in the influence of Radha Bai , she will develop maturity. Right now, they are kids and one can not expect them to behave like adults. So, lets see.

The current cast is superb. They all will be missed. I am enjoying the show these days, the only thing i am watching on TV.

About the cast post leap - I am looking forward to watch Karan Suchak as adult Bajirao. Saw him in Ramayana, in few episodes. He's a fine actor.

yeh dipali was replaced by other girl nitanshi coz of dipali's short height n she looks very young compare to rudra, Nitanshi is looking nice. looking forward for new kashi

might be pb team wants to show radhabai shaping kashi also along with her kids now she is under influence of her mother shiubai which will be reason to fire up situation when mastani will enter but not interested in mastani part

my first choice for adult baji was ashish sharma as he was in cgm with same team and acts gr8 but he got another historical show on sony 'prithvi vallabh' based on malawa king and yashu as kashibai

lets hope after leap will be also good

Edited by Marathi_Mulgi - 6 years ago

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Abhay

@history_geek

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+ 5

Posted: 6 years ago

Krishna Bhatt and Chandrasen Jadhav

Originally posted by: MaddyO

Thanks for sharing Abhay 😃

I hope cvs don't turn Kashi into vamp, as they seemed to be doing. Kashibai character is very different in people's minds and she deserves the respect and dignity.

Did you read they have replaced earlier Kashi 😃. Good step, hope they charge fthe characterisation also.

Don't want to watch Kashi turned into vamp to justify Bajirao falling for Mastani. Kashi vamp and Mastani everything anti-Kashi!

PS are you still watching PB? Hardly see you on forum. Miss your posts.

Yes Maddy, i am still watching this show. The less presence is owing to the busy schedule. Life is getting busy as time passes. Can't believe, we all wrote and discussed in those threads which used to cross 100 pages just about history. In comparison, this thread is just under 30 pages till now. Miss old days. :)

Thankfully, there is no kitchen politics till now. As far as this remains a historical within bearable NR, i am going to watch this.

Hope you are happy with how Kashi's character is shaping up. She won't be a vamp for sure. Her father is such a nice man to watch and he makes up for all the cribbing her mother delivers.

Along with this, we saw another man in the show - Krishna Bhatt. He was shown in the movie Bajirao Mastani. There was a scene when he threatens to kill Mastani and a furious Bajirao moves close to him in anger. But, his way is blocked by Radha Bai.

And he can be seen here too, in the serial. He was officiating in the ceremonies which took place.

It seems Krishna Bhatt was a popular and powerful priest in the conservative society of those days. There are some letters (again in Marathi ! ) which were written by Nana Saheb to Chimnaji Appa about the conversation between Kashi Bai and Krishna Bhatt about Mastani. The letters say that Kashi Bai took promise from Bajirao not to drink and indulge in other troublesome acts ; Kashi Bai also speaks of close ness between Bajirao and Mastani. Kashi Bai also says that she will speak to Brahm Swami about this matter and try to improve the situation of Bajirao. This letter was written in third person and exchanged between Nana Saheb and Chimnaji Appa.

Krishna Bhatt was alive till the very end. So, this will be a long character. He will be shown in favor of Radha Bai and with time, move opposite of Bajirao. The makers should introduce Brahm Swami soon. He was a regular player in the day to day life of Peshwas and Shahu Ji.

Coming back. Along with marriage of Kashi Bai and Bajirao, i am also looking forward to marriage of Bhiu. She was married in a rich family, in 1710-11, in the same year as marriage of her bhau , as i have mentioned in the main post on page 1. Her in laws lent money to the Peshwa.

Though, i am overall happy with the overall pace of the events in the show. But, little disappointment remains. They skipped a major event.

The event is after the death of Dhanaji Jadhav. Balaji was not a very powerful person till then. Chandrasen was the senapati and Balaji was Senakarte (the one who builds / recruits army) . Around 1710, a event led to a event, about which i wrote inside this thread. They did not show this.

Link : https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/141319621

Copying below.

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We saw the son of Dhanaji Jadhav, who was shown to be jealous of Balaji Vishwanath.

This is true. He was always jealous of the rising status of Balaji. After death of Dhanaji in 1708, Shahu Ji appointed him in place of Dhanaji, despite knowing that he was a ambitious youth with no experience. But Shahu ji appointed him because the loyal officers of Dhanaji were required and they were with his son.

Dhanaji's son was never in favor of Shahu ji. He had even criticized his father for supporting Shahu ji and not Tara Bai in the "sham battle" about which i wrote on last to last page in reply to Neesha.

Nevertheless, he was appointed despite his inexperience at his father's position. Shahu ji appointed Balaji as Senakarte (as mentioned in page 1 main post) to help Dhanaji's son. But the latter took it as interference of Balaji. He was jealous of Balaji coz of his growing influence on Maratha army.

Soon, around 1710 - 11, he deserted Shahu ji, fought with Balaji**, and joined the rival camp of Tara Bai. Many other Maratha chiefs deserted Shahu ji. It was the genius of Balaji alone, who stood like a rock along with Shahu Ji in this tough times, fought rival Marathas, and safeguarded the throne for Shahu Ji. Shahu ji appointed the second son of Dhanaji at place of his first son. The second son was also not that competent. He was not a traitor like his elder brother. But even he deserted Shahu ji in tough times.

** - I mentioned in the main post - At the age of 10, Bajirao was hunted by the infuriated Senapati along with his father. This Senapati was the son of Dhanaji. He had quarreled with Balaji on a minor issue and sent 3000 men against Balaji. Balaji was on run from one place to another, saving his life. With him were his children and wife Radha Bai. At last they were helped by Pilaji Jadhav (who was going to become the close friend of Bajirao in future) and a battle was fought. ALong with other, the 11 year old Bajirao distinguished himself in this full blown battle.

This series of events, took place in 1710-11 when bajirao was around 10-11 years old. Little did this rebel son of Dhanaji know, that this same boy would force him bow down on his feet, in future, fearing retribution. On 27th December 1732, this son of Dhanaji who in service of Nizam, welcomed Bajirao in camp of Nizam and looked after Bajirao's needs, attended him, and saw that he had no problem, while in the camp. This was the 6th visit of Bajirao to Nizam Qamruddin !

This elder son of Dhanaji had joined hands with Nizam Qamruddin around 1714. And, represented the anti Shahu and anti Balaji faction in court of Nizam. He is remembered as a traitor in Maratha history. Along with him, another man is remembered - Sultanji Nimbalkar also joined the Nizam in 1726.

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@Marathi_Mulgi

Interesting news about the new show. Thanks for sharing. When is this show starting ? By Prithvi vallabh of Malwa, you mean to say the King Prithvi Vallabh of Paramar dynasty ? It corresponds to the Rajput period (9th century AD). There are at least 3 kings called Prithvi Vallabhs (it is a title meaning Lord of Earth). He was a contemporary of the Chauhans of Ajmer Sakambari, Guhilas of Mewar, Chandellas of Bundelkhand area.

I will watch this show, if this is about his military career, which was full of exciting exploits. :D The only pain being, his end was not good. He was treacherously captured and executed. His love story is famous. Like Prithviraj Chauhan, he was also known to be a great archer.

Edited by history_geek - 6 years ago

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398242

Inactive

Posted: 6 years ago

Originally posted by: history_geek

@Marathi_Mulgi

Interesting news about the new show. Thanks for sharing. When is this show starting ? By Prithvi vallabh of Malwa, you mean to say the King Prithvi Vallabh of Paramar dynasty ? It corresponds to the Rajput period (9th century AD). There are at least 3 kings called Prithvi Vallabhs (it is a title meaning Lord of Earth). He was a contemporary of the Chauhans of Ajmer Sakambari, Guhilas of Mewar, Chandellas of Bundelkhand area.

I will watch this show, if this is about his military career, which was full of exciting exploits. :D The only pain being, his end was not good. He was treacherously captured and executed. His love story is famous. Like Prithviraj Chauhan, he was also known to be a great archer.

don't know about details but only promo shoot news n some offscreen pics are out

if his history is such as prithviraj chauhan then would like to watch it.

liked prc show also

http://topindianshows.in/sony-tv-prithvi-vallabh-serial-casts-timing-promo/

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NONIE

@Nonie12345

IF-Rockerz

Posted: 6 years ago

Fantastic posts Abhay⭐️

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Abhay

@history_geek

IF-Rockerz

+ 5

Posted: 6 years ago

Originally posted by: Marathi_Mulgi

don't know about details but only promo shoot news n some offscreen pics are out
if his history is such as prithviraj chauhan then would like to watch it.
liked prc show also

http://topindianshows.in/sony-tv-prithvi-vallabh-serial-casts-timing-promo/

Thanks for sharing the link. According to this link, this serial is going to show the love story of Prithvi Vallabh (PV). It says the 3 protagonists are : Prithvi Vallabh, Mrinalvati, Tailaap.

Mrinalwati was his lover. Tailaap was the king who had vanquished the Rastrakuta Empire and thus came in direct conflict with PV.

PV had defeated the armies of Tailaap - total 7 times {1 time Tailaap's general came and 6 times Tailaap himself came and was repulsed}. The 8th time PV himself decided to take on Tailaap. However, he was treacherously captured. PV's officers decided to rescue him from the captivity. They were caught & soon PV was mercilessly executed. PV was a darling of the masses.

Sounds somewhat similar to Prithviraj. Isn't it ? Major difference being - his end did not change the course of Indian history, as did the defeat and death of Prithviraj.

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Shivani Priyam Kumar

@Meself

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+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

I missed out on so many things here. God I need to buck up. Come on Shivu you can do this.😆

Anyways I really am looking forward to the leap with hope that Kashibai won't over glorified. I hated the movie that made Mastani a courtesan and Kashi a poster woman for abuse, I mean come on.

Also I read that Kakju Chhatrasal and Mastani were followers of Pranami Pant. Abhay could you share more light on this particular sect. It is said that Pranami took inspiration from Akbar's Din-i-Ilahi.

Edited by Meself - 6 years ago

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Man

@Manzz

Coolbie

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

😃 😃 Interesting And Wonderful Information 😃 😃

😃 😃 😳 😳 😃 😃 😳 And Photographs Are Simply Too Good ! ! 😉 😆 😳 😃 Thank You So Much - For The History Class ! ! 😳 😉 😆 😃 😃

😃 😳 😃 😃 😃

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Abhay

@history_geek

IF-Rockerz

+ 5

Posted: 6 years ago

Originally posted by: Meself
I missed out on so many things here. God I need to buck up. Come on Shivu you can do this.😆

Anyways I really am looking forward to the leap with hope that Kashibai won't over glorified. I hated the movie that made Mastani a courtesan and Kashi a poster woman for abuse, I mean come on.

Also I read that Kakju Chhatrasal and Mastani were followers of Pranami Pant. Abhay could you share more light on this particular sect. It is said that Pranami took inspiration from Akbar's Din-i-Ilahi.

By now, I hope you have gone through the missed part, Shivani. ;)

I totally loved the first 2 episodes after leap. - Friday and Monday. The new cast looks SUPERB. As regards Kashi Bai, the actress playing the role is perfect and her characterization has been in accordance with my expectations. Mastani is yet to make her entry. So let us see. I would like to see Bajirao getting a little soft towards Kashi Bai. I am sure it will happen slowly.

I have to give it to the dialogue writers. In the last episode, it was Bajirao and today Kashi Bai was given some fanstastic lines.

KashiBai -

"Hamein kahaaniyan nahi chahiye Rakma, Hamein to wo chahiyein"

"Aai saheb ke kehne par ham varshon se in kauyon ko daana daal rahein hain ki shaayad kisi din yeh unke lautenein ki khabar leke aeynge, aur yeh besharam chug kar chale jaate hain" { Lol moment }

"Pata hai man kya chahta hai, Yeh man to chahta hai ki kabhi hamaare naam bhi unka likha hua patra aaye, us mein unke haath se likha hua hamaara naam ho - Kashi. Rakma hum saugandh kha kar kehte hain ki us chote se kaagaz ke tukde par apne gehne zevar sab kuch nyucchavar kar denge, kyu ki hum gehno se nahi sajte, hum to Rao ke hone se sajte hain."

"Hum kya karein Rakma, krodh karein na karein, lekin chinta to karenge na"

Bajirao -

"Bajirao kahin akele nahi aata, uski talwaar bhi uske saath aati hai aur uske tewar bhi"

"Waah! zuban ke saath talwaar bhi chalti hai teri, Jung mein Bajirao ka khoon bahaane ki aukat to nahi, chal thoda pasina hi baha de"

"Loha bas teer mein nahi hota, jigar mein bhi hota hai"

"Maa ur mitti kisi ki bhi ho ; Qaid mein achi nahi lagti"

"Ya to aaj suryaast se pehle Bajirao Ballal Bhatt, Yesu Bai Saheb to waapas leke aeyga, Ya phir aaj Suryaast hoga hi nahi"

Coming to your Kaku Chhatrasal

Yes, Mastani was a follower of the Pranami sect (mentioned this in the main post on page 1). Since i am not well versed about this sect, i can not say much in depth. But this did not take inspiration from Din e Illahi. It was similar to it in some manner. Because Pranamis combined the elements from Hinduism and Islam, much like the Din i Illahi.

BTW, What Akbar started was Tauhid e Illahi (there was nothing called Din e Illahi in the time of Akbar, and it was not a religion.) See this old post on mine.

*****************
Posted: 19 January 2014 at 8:21pm | IP Logged

First, a correction, It was NOT Din-i-llahi originally , but Tauhid-i-llahi.

Tauhid-i-llahi means Divine Monotheism. Abul Fazl and Badayuni have used this word only in the accounts. After Akbar's death, after 80 years, the word Tauhid was replaced by Din.

Din means faith. Tauhid-i-llahi, was the "real order" of Sufi type. Later, meaning changed to Divine Faith. Earlier, it was Divine Monotheism. So, it was not called a 'faith' initially. !

P.S. ---> I have not used the word "religion" for this.

**********************

Coming back. Prannath is considered the "real" founder of Pranami sect because under him, lot of popularization of their ideology occured. He traveled from place to place, in the court of one ruler to another. Prannath thought that if he is able to initiate any particular king in his sect, then this sect would get immediate ascendancy.

Prannath generally invited the mullas, the qazis, the gosains or the Vallabhi leaders. There was thus special attempt to convert not the ordinary individuals but those people who commanded authority over the spiritual life of masses by Prannath. The political elites, both Hindus and Muslims were approached. Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb, some of the dominant nobles of his court, Raja Jaswant Singh of Jodhpur, Rana Raj Singh of Mewar, Bhav Singh, Maharaja Chhatrasal Bundela, the Raja of Ramnagar and other local elites of Mandsor, Garha, Akot, Aurangabad, Sidhpur and Junagarh among those who were approached by with a message to join his cult. Prannath, though not selective, made attempts to build a strong base for his cult by consecrating the influential and resourceful people who could, in turn, mobilise the masses towards his cult.

After traveling a lot of places, he found refuge in the court of Chhatrasal.

First of all Dev Karan, a noble in Chhatrasal's court accepted his mission. Through him Prannath invited the Bundela King Chhatrasal to come to his support in his struggle to propagate his mission.

In response, Chhatrasal visted Prannath twice secretly, to receive his blessings in the fight against the Mughals and their allies. There was an attack by Sher Afghan, the Faujdar of Errach in 1682 on Bundelkhand to subdue Chhatrasal. He was defeated by Chhatrasal.

Chhatrasal believed that the victories he had scored them all owed to Prannath's support. He began to worship him like God.

Prannath thus finally found a place to make the seat of his mission. He told Chhatrasal that he had tried many including the Rana of Mewar and the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb (Lol), but he found the base for truth only in him and his kingdom :

In course of his stay in Panna, Prannath convinced Chhatrasal of the fact that Quran also contains the truth and this he did in the presence of both the qazi and the pandit.

Prannath, when settled permanently in the court of Panna under patronage of Chhatrasal came to be worshiped like Lord Krishna. There is a description of eight divisions of a day, each part of the day was assigned a specific ritual, like bathing of Prannath, dinning, kirtan, resting and discourse etc.

The ideology of Prannath was a radical one aiming at introducing social change in terms of transgression of caste barriers, social mobility and transformation of the established religious beliefs. As the caste hierarchy was the foremost basis of the prevailing social order, Prannath's inclusion of the shudras in his cult invited criticism, also from his own group.

It is to be noted that unlike many other noted medieval radical saints, Devchand (Guru of Prannath from whose company he was banished) and Prannath both hailed from Kayastha and Kshatriya castes respectively and their families had affluent business.

The people Prannath tried to bring to the fold of his Sampradaya generally belonged to the upper or middle strata. Thus there was a strong reason for opposition from within to the inclusion of the sudras in the cult.- Prannath, however, did not bow to their pressure.

The participation of women as active members of the cult was yet another problem. There were a large number of female followers of Prannath who not only embraced the faith but accompanied him to distant places in the course of his activities. They participated in all the public rituals along with the male members of the Sampradaya. Someone reported to the Kotwal that males and female sit together in the house of that kayastha, why don't you check what they do.

The women disciples when attended late night sessions of public lectures, their husbands also felt offended. The husbands fought with their wives and asked why they went there. They should not do so, they should not be out of their houses at night.

Still, Prannath attracted a large number of devotees towards his faith. Prannath and his followers in their journey covered a wide area of western and northern India, including Jamnagar, Surat, Thatta (Sindh) Kachh, Khambhalia (Cambay), Junagarh, Deev Bandar, Porbandar, Udaipur, Burhanpur, Ramnagar, Aurangabad, Delhi and Panna. Besides some of his disciples also visited the Arab land.

Though, Devchand (Guru of Prannath) based his faith on Krishnaite traditions, Prannath emphasized the similarities in Hinduism and Islam. Prannath also sought the support from the ruling elites. He contemplated and preached the unity of all the religions, projected himself as an adherent of the Prophet, and attempted to convince Aurangzeb of the truth of his understanding of Islam, saying : (It is also the same Islam on which we all profess.)

Like the other sants and bhakti traditions, "Prannathi Islam" also emerged as a reaction against both the Islamic bigotry and Brahmanical exclusiveness. Prannath attempted synthesis of Brahmanism and Islam by establishing a unity between the teachings of the Vedas and Quran. However, in the end this radical attempt in the manner of other bhakti cults also got lost with time.

We may speculate that even as Prannath advocated synthesis, his faith still represented the Brahmin strand. The behavioural pattern, like the strictures banning the consumption of meat and fish, as emphasized by the founder guru was predominantly Brahmin like. The dress code was also in conformity with the Indian tradition. The devotees wore chains and put vermilion mark. More significant was the ideology based on scriptures that was given prominence. Quran and Hadith were viewed in relation to Vedas. The aspirants were advised to renew their understanding of Quran and not of the Vedas. Prannath clearly stated in the court of Chhatrasal that they read Quran because the truth of his mission also be traced in that scripture.

Prannathi movement, though imbibed Islamic ideology in a great measure, did not reject the authority of the Indian scriptures. Prannath rather believed that the true meaning and esoteric message contained in these scriptures was not known to the people and his reformulations could bring forth the real essence. He also borrowed from Sufi ideology and we find frequent references to haqiqat and marifat as different stages of realizing the Supreme. All these ideologies so distinct from Brahmin thought were connected to the latter by Prannath. Though he utilized different ideologies as and when required in interacting with people, in the concluding phase of the movement, he received acknowledgement only in terms of Brahmin beliefs. Moreover, his deification as living God, the Purna Brahma or Lord Krishna in the court of Panna clearly reflects the direction the movement finally took.

After the death of Prannath in 1694, the tradition was continued by his eminent followers, but none of them assumed the title of Guru. They were called swamis or Kavis for composing poetry to reiterate and disseminate the Prannathi literature.

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Shivani Priyam Kumar

@Meself

IF-Sizzlerz

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

^^Yes went through the missed posts speedily. Though I have to re-read them in details. :)

The after leap episodes were amazing. Initially there was hitch on Karan's part but now he seems to be at ease. I found him initiating Ranveer in certain scenes but that done and dealt with. The major fact that works in his favour is his resemblance to Rudra. The casting is perfect when it comes to both Bajirao and Kashibai but unfortunately the characterisation is poor to a point it feels pathetic.

The soft aspect of Bajirao in front of Kashibai is missing so much. They are unfortunately following the movie that had painted Kashibai as the abused and abandoned wife. Why again?

While I liked the warrior Bajirao, the man behind is lacking so much. I hope, I desperately hope that they rectify this ASAP. Next up, Mastani. I have to admit I dislike her truly. Meghna is a horrible choice and the way this character is, I don't think I will be able to like her. Why you do this Indian TV? Why I can't I enjoy a historical the way it is supposed to be.

*************

Okay that was some amazing information Abhay. Its a bit baffling to know the religion that was so popularised during Akbar's time was actually a practice that too going by the name of Tauhid-e-Illahi. So it was more of a matter of faith than practice.

Prannath or as he is referred to, Swami Prannath was the one who introduced Mastani into the Pranamis sect. Had no idea he is almost the man behind it. From what I had read, two festivals were of utmost importance to Pranamis, Eid and Janmashtami. Liquor, non-vegetarian and every other intoxication was prohibited under Pranamis sect. Much like the Bhagwats of Vaishnav sect. Thank you for sharing this here Abhay

P.S. A question that I had been wanting to ask. The Rajputana had Karshini womenfolk, the ones who worshipped Krishna. While I agree that Vaishnav sect found a strong momentum during Mughal period how did the Karshini wing spread to later Rajputs? Especially when most of them were Shaiv? It's almost fantastic that every Rajput women was a devout Karshini. How?

Edited by Meself - 6 years ago

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