Pettigrew: Suicide or Murder? - Page 2

Originally posted by: *Jane*

The scene went like this:

"You're going to kill me?" Harry choked, attempting to pries off the metal finger. "After I saved your life? You owe me, Wormtail!"
The silver fingers slackened. Harry had not expected it: He wrenched himself free, astonished, keeping his hand over Wormtail's mouth. He saw the rat like man's small watery eyes widen with fear and surprise: he seemed just as shocked as Harry at what his hand had done, at the tiny, merciful impulse it had betrayed, and he continued to struggle more powerfully, as though to undo that moment of weakness."

IMO it was a little of both. He committed indirect suicide by showing that one moment of remorse and it was murder as he didn't want this to happen.

I cant say I agree completely here...see Suicide is killing ur self(against or with ur will it doesnt matter..But accepting the death as inevitable)--Petigrew didnt Kill Himself...that One moment of mercy and gratitde had indeed Betrayed him---and how? he had narly disobeyed the man who gave him the hand and with that own hand!--N so He had o pay the price...the hand killed the man who wud have failed the master's bidding...

Originally posted by: lucky_lakshmi

I cant say I agree completely here...see Suicide is killing ur self(against or with ur will it doesnt matter..But accepting the death as inevitable)--Petigrew didnt Kill Himself...that One moment of mercy and gratitde had indeed Betrayed him---and how? he had narly disobeyed the man who gave him the hand and with that own hand!--N so He had o pay the price...the hand killed the man who wud have failed the master's bidding...

Well I did say indirectly... In a sense he did commit suicide since he knew of it and he knew that showing that one moment of weakness is as well as killing himself. Whether he intended it to happen or not the point is that he did show remorse and to show remorse to Harry equals suicide when it comes to Peter. Suicide comes in all forms. His is a unique case and one that borders on murder but non-the-less it still remains that this was an inevitable for him if he ever betrayed Voldemort so, in part it was suicide IMO.

Exactly you are right it is in the 7th book if you guys had read it.

This is a very complex question and there are several factors involved.

Murder by definition requires intent and motive. Which means Voldemort would have intended to kill Wormtail and had the motive. Now we have no doubts about motive as Wormtail betrays him by saving Harry. Now intent to is a different question.

Let us assume that I want to protect my house from thieves. So I put a charm on it to kill anyone who trues breaking in. My intent is not to kill them, but instill enough fear that they would not attempt it.

For Voldemort to have actual intent to kill Wormtail he would have foreseen that Wormtail would betray him. However, in my opinion Voldemort did not foresee the betrayal he merely installed a curse to prevent betrayal.

Suicide also requires motive and intent to terminate ones life. A person who commits suicide is motivated by psychological/physiological factors that make death desirable. At the same time many people may feel occasional desire for death but never really intend to follow through, so intent is key too.

If I was playing with a gun and accidentally shot myself, that is not suicide as I had no motive nor intent. Suppose I wanted to kill myself and was holding a gun contemplating if this is the right way to do so and accidentally pull the trigger, it still is not suicide as I did not intend to kill myself but was merely contemplating it.

If I were to jump in front of a train to save a friend and died. The act was suicidal, but it was not suicide as the intent was to save another and not kill oneself. It was an act done with our without conscious knowledge of collateral damage.

Now, for Wormtail's death to be suicide he would have wanted to end is life and intended to. He had no motive and his decision to save Harry was a subconscious decision to save and not a conscious decision to end his life.

So in conclusion the death of Wormtail is not murder nor suicide. It is an accident. Voldemort is guilty of negligent homicide and reckless endangerment.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

This is a very complex question and there are several factors involved.

Murder by definition requires intent and motive. Which means Voldemort would have intended to kill Wormtail and had the motive. Now we have no doubts about motive as Wormtail betrays him by saving Harry. Now intent to is a different question.

Let us assume that I want to protect my house from thieves. So I put a charm on it to kill anyone who trues breaking in. My intent is not to kill them, but instill enough fear that they would not attempt it.

For Voldemort to have actual intent to kill Wormtail he would have foreseen that Wormtail would betray him. However, in my opinion Voldemort did not foresee the betrayal he merely installed a curse to prevent betrayal.

Suicide also requires motive and intent to terminate ones life. A person who commits suicide is motivated by psychological/physiological factors that make death desirable. At the same time many people may feel occasional desire for death but never really intend to follow through, so intent is key too.

If I was playing with a gun and accidentally shot myself, that is not suicide as I had no motive nor intent. Suppose I wanted to kill myself and was holding a gun contemplating if this is the right way to do so and accidentally pull the trigger, it still is not suicide as I did not intend to kill myself but was merely contemplating it.

If I were to jump in front of a train to save a friend and died. The act was suicidal, but it was not suicide as the intent was to save another and not kill oneself. It was an act done with our without conscious knowledge of collateral damage.

Now, for Wormtail's death to be suicide he would have wanted to end is life and intended to. He had no motive and his decision to save Harry was a subconscious decision to save and not a conscious decision to end his life.

So in conclusion the death of Wormtail is not murder nor suicide. It is an accident. Voldemort is guilty of negligent homicide and reckless endangerment.

Well that makes sense and I take back what I said before (about it being both) return_to_hades is right it was neither suicide or murder. Thanks hades.