~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 10

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Great post.

If killing mute spectators was the pointer to say Arjun cared then nobody cares because even Krishna didn't kill Yudhishthir. Duryodhan as a king as I said was not bad so why not kill him? Yudhishthir was the reason this happened - he staked her so nobody cares even Drau doesn't then.

Also we are behaving like Bhishma and Drona are little kids who can be killed in an hour. There are proper battles as per my reading I don't see how it's so easy. Virat War and Kurukshetra are not the same. No of people are more, battle techniques more advanced and also pre planned things happened not an angry fight in Virat.

Precisely!!

They weren't killing people in the war for what they did to Draupadi except for Duryodhan, Dushashan, Karn and Sakuni

They were killing them because they were on the other side of it, Arjuna was very much ready to fight the war

If you go through peace thing, he didn't ask Krishna to he nice to Duryodhana, he said that Peace or War depends on what Krishna wants and he is ready for either of it, then he goes on to remind Krishna about what Kauravas did to Draupadi, You see he was a willing participant before war was announced

It happens in life, its easy to say things but when the time comes and you face the reality of it, which he did on first day of war, he wasn't a willing participant after seeing that he has to kill his own kinsmen, Later Krishna delivered Geeta Gyan and he agreed to fight but he was still not willing to kill Bhishma (Which he did/was a huge participant in his death) and he couldn't kill Drona because Drona was a Brahman and Drishtdumya had to do it

I didn't see him reluctant anywhere in the war except when he faced these two

One more important point to add to his perspective is that if Drona and Bhishma deserved to die for not speaking in the hall so did Yudhishtir, Arjuna blames the war on Yudhishtira's gambling -

I do not derive any pleasure from the thought of thy restoration to sovereignty, since thou art addicted to the evil practice of gambling. Having thyself committed a wicked act to which they only are addicted that are low, thou desirest now to vanquish thy foes through our aid. Thou hadst heard of the numerous faults and the great sinfulness of dice that Sahadeva spoke about. Yet dice, which are worshipped by the wicked, thou couldst not abandon. It was for this that all of us have fallen into hell. We have never derived any happiness from thee since thou wert engaged in gambling with dice.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08070.htm

He considered Yudhishtira responsible for what happened to them and this war, He didn't want to kill people he loved from Kaurava army and he protected people he loved in Pandava army

He was trying to have it all which is not a crime but a very human reaction to important decision in your life

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

I wonder why Krishna didn't do stuff himself? It's not like he didnt know Arjun's reluctance since way before war, even when Arjun hesitated in the beginning he gives big speeches to convince HIM and not do it himself. If he cared so much and his only reason to go to war was Panchali why not go himself and only step up when BHISHMA cannot be killed or Arjun was not working. Why not go first and not give any chance.

Also Drona did care for Arjun, not during war but definitely before war and it's not unnatural for Arjun to bad about Drona. Drona was partial and he went beyond ways to promote Arjuna in his ashram, infact this is stated the word partiality.

Krishna does says a lot of time or rather ask permission to fight from yudhishtra . Both krishna and krishnaa reason for war was justice. They tried for peace.duryodhan did not budge Panchali stood up for justice and krishna was all for her cause

And no there us NO JUSTIFICATION for choosing drona over people who was fighting for him He was wrong and unfair to his army.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Precisely!!

They weren't killing people in the war for what they did to Draupadi except for Duryodhan, Dushashan, Karn and Sakuni

They were killing them because they were on the other side of it, Arjuna was very much ready to fight the war

If you go through peace thing, he didn't ask Krishna to he nice to Duryodhana, he said that Peace or War depends on what Krishna wants and he is ready for either of it, then he goes on to remind Krishna about what Kauravas did to Draupadi, You see he was a willing participant before war was announced

It happens in life, its easy to say things but when the time comes and you face the reality of it, which he did on first day of war, he wasn't a willing participant after seeing that he has to kill his own kinsmen, Later Krishna delivered Geeta Gyan and he agreed to fight but he was still not willing to kill Bhishma (Which he did/was a huge participant in his death) and he couldn't kill Drona because Drona was a Brahman and Drishtdumya had to do it

I didn't see him reluctant anywhere in the war except when he faced these two

One more important point to add to his perspective is that if Drona and Bhishma deserved to die for not speaking in the hall so did Yudhishtir, Arjuna blames the war on Yudhishtira's gambling -

I do not derive any pleasure from the thought of thy restoration to sovereignty, since thou art addicted to the evil practice of gambling. Having thyself committed a wicked act to which they only are addicted that are low, thou desirest now to vanquish thy foes through our aid. Thou hadst heard of the numerous faults and the great sinfulness of dice that Sahadeva spoke about. Yet dice, which are worshipped by the wicked, thou couldst not abandon. It was for this that all of us have fallen into hell. We have never derived any happiness from thee since thou wert engaged in gambling with dice.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08070.htm

He considered Yudhishtira responsible for what happened to them and this war, He didn't want to kill people he loved from Kaurava army and he protected people he loved in Pandava army

He was trying to have it all which is not a crime but a very human reaction to important decision in your life

The thing is one cannot have everything in life so then you have to stand by the cause which was write by keep swinging both ways you are really doing nothing

Arjuna was wrong to pick up fight with drishtdyum.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

No, you said that she wanted justice for people and not herself. That doesn't look desirable to me because people didn't get humiliated she did so she should stress on justice for herself not for her people or her empress dharma rn. U said she didn't want justice for personal gain but it's important to ask for justice for personal gain here because it is SHE WHO SUFFERED not Tom Dick and Harry

What I meant that she wanted either duryodhan and co to repent what they did or they should be punished. This will provide justice to her and also for others that s was her duty as an empress and also as a woman

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

The thing is one cannot have everything in life so then you have to stand by the cause which was write by keep swinging both ways you are really doing nothing

Arjuna was wrong to pick up fight with drishtdyum.

Thats why he became the "Human" part of Mahabharata, we all want it all, don't we? Its not ideal but we do.

I have said it 5 times, Arjuna didn't pick up a fight with Drishtdumya, He was blaming everyone including himself for Drona's death, he didn't fight with ANYONE

The fight was between Satyaki and Drishtdumya

Arjuna saved all of them after Drona died

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Thats why he became the "Human" part of Mahabharata, we all want it all, don't we? Its not ideal but we do.

I have said it 5 times, Arjuna didn't pick up a fight with Drishtdumya

He did it is satyaki supported him you should read that part. I feel lazy to provide the citation he even taunted drishtdyum later citation in previous page.

And no only some humans are people pleaser. There are others like panchali like krishna like kunti like sahadev who knew how to keep duty above everything and then there ate people like duryodhan and gang. All these "human" still exists today. You should look around

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Precisely!!

They weren't killing people in the war for what they did to Draupadi except for Duryodhan, Dushashan, Karn and Sakuni

They were killing them because they were on the other side of it, Arjuna was very much ready to fight the war

If you go through peace thing, he didn't ask Krishna to he nice to Duryodhana, he said that Peace or War depends on what Krishna wants and he is ready for either of it, then he goes on to remind Krishna about what Kauravas did to Draupadi, You see he was a willing participant before war was announced

It happens in life, its easy to say things but when the time comes and you face the reality of it, which he did on first day of war, he wasn't a willing participant after seeing that he has to kill his own kinsmen, Later Krishna delivered Geeta Gyan and he agreed to fight but he was still not willing to kill Bhishma (Which he did/was a huge participant in his death) and he couldn't kill Drona because Drona was a Brahman and Drishtdumya had to do it

I didn't see him reluctant anywhere in the war except when he faced these two

One more important point to add to his perspective is that if Drona and Bhishma deserved to die for not speaking in the hall so did Yudhishtir, Arjuna blames the war on Yudhishtira's gambling -

I do not derive any pleasure from the thought of thy restoration to sovereignty, since thou art addicted to the evil practice of gambling. Having thyself committed a wicked act to which they only are addicted that are low, thou desirest now to vanquish thy foes through our aid. Thou hadst heard of the numerous faults and the great sinfulness of dice that Sahadeva spoke about. Yet dice, which are worshipped by the wicked, thou couldst not abandon. It was for this that all of us have fallen into hell. We have never derived any happiness from thee since thou wert engaged in gambling with dice.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08070.htm

He considered Yudhishtira responsible for what happened to them and this war, He didn't want to kill people he loved from Kaurava army and he protected people he loved in Pandava army

He was trying to have it all which is not a crime but a very human reaction to important decision in your life

See his main reluctance is Bhishma and Drona as per my reading and both are close to him and there's nothing wrong in hesitating to kill them. Please note that Duryodhan needed to be killed not Bhishma. Bhishma was a great warrior but his defeat won't end war unless Dury is captured or killed. We need to stop behaving like killed Drona and Bhishma would end it. Karna was very much there and while I agree he was no match for Arjun he definitely was a strong warrior and an important figure for Kaurav army.

He did kill Bhishma - we have discussed this enough. About Drona, well wasn't Dhristadyumna destined to kill Drona? I am not saying divine way but he wanted to kill? Just like Bheem wanted to kill Kauravas. Hence yes he did hesitate to kill them.

I fail to understand why this shows he didn't care for Panchali and all the pre war citations have to be overlooked. He did do his job, maybe not with all the passion and valour as in Virat War but he did. Also we are forgetting he never hesitated to fight these people in Virat war. It's not like he didn't care but an emotional outburst at such a crucial time of life is natural thing. They aren't robots.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

He did it is very well documented satyaki supported him you should read that part. I feel lazy to provide the citation

And no only some humans are people pleaser. There are others like panchali like krishna like kunti like sahadev who knew how to keep duty above everything and then there ate people like duryodhan and gang. All these "human" still exists today. You should look around

I have read that part, He didn't fight with Drishtdumya, He blamed Yudi, Drishtdumya and himself for Drona's death, that's about it

Bhima lectured Arjuna

Drishtdumya Lectured Arjuna

Satyaki Lectured Drishtdumya

Drishtdumya Lectured Satyaki

Satyaki ran towards him with a mace

Arjuna didn't speak at all after his first emotional outburst where he blamed everyone, next time he spoke was to Bhima about Narayani Astra

Fight is what happened between Drishtdumya and Satyaki

I don't know from where people pleaser came when we were talking about saving everyone he loved, he couldn't do it but he tried

We are going in circles about this. I didn't like him taunting/picking a fight with drishtdyum after drona s death. Drishtdyum was kind enough to forgive. I will stand by this. Hesitating 14 15 days in the war begging mercy for a member was opposite team does not sits well with me. And that s about it.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Krishna does says a lot of time or rather ask permission to fight from yudhishtra . Both krishna and krishnaa reason for war was justice. They tried for peace.duryodhan did not budge Panchali stood up for justice and krishna was all for her cause

And no there us NO JUSTIFICATION for choosing drona over people who was fighting for him He was wrong and unfair to his army.

He asks for permission only when ARJUN wasn't fighting well, or he was not killing Bhishma. What was he doing before war when Arjun was reluctant? What was he doing when Arjun said he won't fight standing in Kurukshetra? If he is so interested in war he should not have waited for Arjun to fail before coming up. There's no rule Arjun Krishna can't fight together. Instead of trying to convince Arjun he should have gone himself and brought panchali her justice. Why sit for hours and lecture Arjun if his main motive was justice for Panchali. Pick up weapon and fight from the beginning not as substitute when Bhishma is undefeateable. Did he say he wishes to fight before war? When YBANS said they wanted peace? NO.