~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 8

6)Arjuna - he was her friend. I will like to go with nora on this. She pretty much summed it up.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Arjuna

1 Dice Hall -

"Duryodhana, hearing Vidura thus speak, said,--'I am willing to abide by the words of Bhima, of Arjuna and of the twins. Let them say that Yudhishthira is not their master. Yajnaseni will then be freed from her state of bondage."

"Arjuna at this, said,--"This illustrious son of Kunti, king Yudhishthira the just, was certainly our master before he began to play. But having lost himself, let all the Kauravas judge whose master he could be after that."

2 To Krishna before he was going for Peace talk -

I thought that Suyodhana deserved death at my hands. What thou, however, O Krishna, wishest to do for thy friends is scarcely strange, although it seems inexplicable how the object In view is capable of being effected by either mildness or its reverse. Or, if thou deemest their immediate destruction to be preferable, let it be effected soon without further deliberation. Surely, thou knowest how Draupadi was insulted in the midst of the assembly by Duryodhana of sinful soul and how also we bore it with patience. That Duryodhana, O Madhava, will behave with justice towards the Pandavas is what I cannot believe. Wise counsels will be lost on him like seed sown in a barren soil. Therefore, do without delay what thou, O thou of Vrishni race, thinkest to be proper and beneficial for the Pandavas, or what, indeed, should next be done.'"

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05078.htm

3 Krishna in Hastinapur about Arjuna -

“Then in that hall, while Krishna stood, the charioteer's son addressed her in the presence of her fathers-in-law saying, 'O Daughter of Drupada thou hast no refuge. Better betake thyself as a bond-woman to the house of Dhritarashtra's son.Thy husbands, being defeated, no longer exist. Thou hast a loving soul, choose some one else for thy lord.' This speech, proceeding from Karna, was a wordy arrow, sharp, cutting all hopes, hitting the tenderest parts of the organisation, and frightful. It buried itself deep in Arjuna's heart

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05029.htm

4 Virat War -

Abandoning good breeding, thou hadst uttered many harsh words, but this that thou endeavourest to do, is, I think, exceedingly difficult. Do thou now, O Radha's son, contending with me in the sight of the Kurus, make good what thou hadst said before in disregard of myself. Thou who hadst witnessed Panchala's princess outraged by villains in the midst of the court, do thou now reap the fruit of that act of thine.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04060.htm

5 Drona Parva -

Thus addressed, Partha replied unto Kesava saying--'So be it. Even this should be done by me. Disregarding everything else, proceed thither where Duryodhana is. Putting forth my prowess in battle, I will cut off the head of that wretch who hath for such a long period enjoyed our kingdom without a thorn on his side. Shall I not succeed, O Kesava, in avenging myself of the insult, in the shape of dragging her by the hair, offered unto Draupadi, undeserving as she was of that wrong.'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07098.htm

There's Karna's vadh and in later chapters he blames himself for what happened to Draupadi in dice hall (Nakul or Sahdev do too), I don't remember the parva

All those words of feeling the pain. Carrying her, bringing her gifts, trying to protect her from keechak isnt worth two hoots if Duryodhan and gang were simply being let off because Bhishma and Drona were protecting them.

Why protect from keechaka then. Let him have his way. After all he was also part of someone's family.

If keechaka deserved to be killed with his followers then so did Dury and his followers.

But that was the problem with Yudhishtir and Arjun and Bhima and even nakul.

As long as the person against them doing evil is not a family member, they will happily kill them. No one even has to ask.

But because Jayadrath was a brother in law he was let go. Because Dury was a cousin being protected by bhishma and drona Draupadi had to beg to Krishna for justice.

How is that caring for Draupadi then.

Because when the time came to stand up and say Duryodhan Dusshasan and Karna are not sorry for what they did to her so they must be killed. And if they are being protected by those whom we love then they must be killed too. Arjun didnt do that. Bhima did only after the war started. Yudhi and Nakul did after the war started. Arjun didnt do it even during the war

That is the only thing that matters. Every expression or act of love before this is meaningless otherwise.

Disclaimer: Draupadi was not responsible for war. Duryodhan and his cronies were. Bhishma and Dron were.

They were responsible for every death by choosing to fight for duryodhan. To a great extent Arjun also by not killing bhishma on day 1 and drona on day 2. Karn on day 3. So that bhima could kill all the kouravas on day 3.

A war that they could have finished in 3 days. Dragged on for 18 days because Arjun refused to kill bhishma and drona.

Remember 10 days of bhishma+5 days of drona could be avpided if arjun had killed them promptly. It only took 2 and half days to kill every one else.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

All those words of feeling the pain. Carrying her, bringing her gifts, trying to protect her from keechak isnt worth two hoots if Duryodhan and gang were simply being let off because Bhishma and Drona were protecting them.

Why protect from keechaka then. Let him have his way. After all he was also part of someone's family.

If keechaka deserved to be killed with his followers then so did Dury and his followers.

But that was the problem with Yudhishtir and Arjun and Bhima and even nakul.

As long as the person against them doing evil is not a family member, they will happily kill them. No one even has to ask.

But because Jayadrath was a brother in law he was let go. Because Dury was a cousin being protected by bhishma and drona Draupadi had to beg to Krishna for justice.

How is that caring for Draupadi then.

Because when the time came to stand up and say Duryodhan Dusshasan and Karna are not sorry for what they did to her so they must be killed. And if they are being protected by those whom we love then they must be killed too. Arjun didnt do that. Bhima did only after the war started. Yudhi and Nakul did after the war started. Arjun didnt do it even during the war

That is the only thing that matters. Every expression or act of love before this is meaningless otherwise.

Disclaimer: Draupadi was not responsible for war. Duryodhan and his cronies were. Bhishma and Dron were.

They were responsible for every death by choosing to fight for duryodhan. To a great extent Arjun also by not killing bhishma on day 1 and drona on day 2. Karn on day 3. So that bhima could kill all the kouravas on day 3.

A war that they could have finished in 3 days. Dragged on for 18 days because Arjun refused to kill bhishma and drona.

Remember 10 days of bhishma+5 days of drona could be avpided if arjun had killed them promptly. It only took 2 and half days to kill every one else.

I to agree with this panchali did gave a chance for repentance it was duryodhan and co rejected the offer. Even after this i don't see the reason for arjun s reluctance. Marriage demands that you stand by your partner when such circumstances arises arjuna didn't even bheem didn't. So yeah none of their really care.

Arjuna cared more for his father figure than he cared for panchali and this post is for people who genuinely cared for panchali.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Then bheem cared too. Not Only arjuna

As i said either both of them or none. Because bheem killed kheechak. Bheem killed dusashan. Bheem always stood by drapaudi. So no arjuna is not the only one among the pandavas. Bheem deserves more to be on this list than arjuna ever does

Exactly. Agreed over here. Though i am arjun fan i will say this.

I understand he let go of his masculinity to protect her but technically he is the only one who could have done it. Nakul Sahadev are never mentioned as trusted warriors and they didn't know dancing for sure. Bheem was too big and easily distinguishable. Arjuna was the only one who knew how to do dance and also would be able to be a woman. So I don't think it's something he did completely out of free will with no options.

Also, Bheem's statements are more of rage and Arjun's more of logic. Now it's upto the person which one to consider more important. However, I will say both deserve credit here and people need to stop saying nobody tried to protest. If protest is considered, Bheem did. If logic is considered, Arjun did.

It's unfair to not include Bheem here if we are considering Panchali. That's one romantic relationship from the epic I genuinely adore IMO.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Exactly. Agreed over here. Though i am arjun fan i will say this.

I understand he let go of his masculinity to protect her but technically he is the only one who could have done it. Nakul Sahadev are never mentioned as trusted warriors and they didn't know dancing for sure. Bheem was too big and easily distinguishable. Arjuna was the only one who knew how to do dance and also would be able to be a woman. So I don't think it's something he did completely out of free will with no options.

Also, Bheem's statements are more of rage and Arjun's more of logic. Now it's upto the person which one to consider more important. However, I will say both deserve credit here and people need to stop saying nobody tried to protest. If protest is considered, Bheem did. If logic is considered, Arjun did.

It's unfair to not include Bheem here if we are considering Panchali. That's one romantic relationship from the epic I genuinely adore IMO.

Yes they did protest. But everything was tossed out of the window the moment it actually came to stand by their claims. See its not like they did not try for peace they did. Drapaudi s conversation with krishna is proof that she says that she is ready for peace of duryodhan and co repentance their mistakes but it was duryodhan rejected. Bhism and drona never raised their voice against anything that happened with drapaudi and pandavas. Drona didn't hesitate before killing abhimanyu. Then why was arjuna hesitating to stand by his wife who cared for him and who was clearly right in this situation why hesitate to kill them and if this was not enough he didn't wanted even others to do it he literally picks up a fight with drishtdyum for drona and this after abhimanyu s death. And even bhim was reluctant even after the other side refused to accept their mistakes. To support your spouse in such situation is one aspect of marriage and it was not panchali was some blood thirsty beast she was ready to reconcile if there is repentance but there was none. Arjuna and bhima did not support her specially Arjuna hesitate a lot this shows that they didn't cared much about panchali her cause her need for justice

By saying BAN etc didn't care for Panchaali because they were ready to give up war means that

1. Only going to war means caring for Panchali.

2. Panchali wanted war and she is the reason war happened.

I don't agree with either of these. Panchali may want war but she isn't the reason for it. We are forgetting here that war is a killing of alot of innocent people and not only Bhishma and Drona. The soldiers, people and their families made no mistake. They didn't harrass Draupadi. We are considering war to be a duel between Arjun Bhishma, Arjun Drona or Arjun Karna. It wasn't that simple. Why not ask them to come in a duel then like Bheem Duryodhan?

I understand Panchali deserved justice. Of course she did, but war is a price which is not going to be paid by Bhishma and Drona, but by everyone around. Kurukshetra simply destroyed crores of people for sure unless we say it is an exaggeration while it was simply some nomadic war. In this case Panchali doesn't even come in it would happen even without the VH, all for land.

Now I understand all citations will mention their reluctance to kill Bhishma and Drona and not about normal people but I do believe the general notion of war is which stopped them. At that day and age, there was something romantic and glorified about war and mass murders. But my point here isn't that ARJUN cared about people, but the fact is stopping war would mean alot of people who didn't do any wrong would be spared. That's all. Simple anti war statements.

However what Arjun mentions before Geeta Gyan is all about his emotions, about his family. But can we also think of the complexity of emotion here? Not everyone was like Krishna who didn't have any family attachments but was just working for justice. It is difficult to choose between your grandfather and your wife. Or your uncle and your wife. It doesn't mean you love one over the other, but it is just a dilemma of emotions because it was a war of blood not words only. There's a reason why war is not desirable under any circumstances. Also, it meant probability of loss of their own children or brothers considering all were human.

Just because they didn't want war doesn't mean they didn't care about Draupadi. Also in this case Bheem - q and Arjun - 0 because Bheem at least did fight when je had to and did not show any remorse while at war. Arjun I believe still didn't do enough, moreover he was still reluctant to kill anyone and took days.

It is difficult to let go of people whom you have grown up with and be at war with them where they will lose their lives. Keeping quiet about a crime and the actual criminal also does not deserve same amount of punishment. Infact law will punish the latter only and morality will punish the former. I am just saying it's human to be emotional. I understand they were all wrong and did nothing to help them but even then they were family, and also the people Arjun grew up with. It's difficult to kill them even if the crime is very grave.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Yes they did protest. But everything was tossed out of the window the moment it actually came to stand by their claims. See its not like they did not try for peace they did. Drapaudi s conversation with krishna is proof that she says that she is ready for peace of duryodhan and co repentance their mistakes but it was duryodhan rejected. Bhism and drona never raised their voice against anything that happened with drapaudi and pandavas. Drona didn't hesitate before killing abhimanyu. Then why was arjuna hesitating to stand by his wife who cared for him and who was clearly right in this situation why hesitate to kill them and if this was not enough he didn't wanted even others to do it he literally picks up a fight with drishtdyum for drona and this after abhimanyu s death. And even bhim was reluctant even after the other side refused to accept their mistakes. To support your spouse in such situation is one aspect of marriage and it was not panchali was some blood thirsty beast she was ready to reconcile if there is repentance but there was none. Arjuna and bhima did not support her specially Arjuna hesitate a lot this shows that they didn't cared much about panchali her cause her need for justice

I replied above about this and then saw your post so could not quote but yeah i said my reasons down belo 😆

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

By saying BAN etc didn't care for Panchaali because they were ready to give up war means that

1. Only going to war means caring for Panchali.

2. Panchali wanted war and she is the reason war happened.

I don't agree with either of these. Panchali may want war but she isn't the reason for it. We are forgetting here that war is a killing of alot of innocent people and not only Bhishma and Drona. The soldiers, people and their families made no mistake. They didn't harrass Draupadi. We are considering war to be a duel between Arjun Bhishma, Arjun Drona or Arjun Karna. It wasn't that simple. Why not ask them to come in a duel then like Bheem Duryodhan?

I understand Panchali deserved justice. Of course she did, but war is a price which is not going to be paid by Bhishma and Drona, but by everyone around. Kurukshetra simply destroyed crores of people for sure unless we say it is an exaggeration while it was simply some nomadic war. In this case Panchali doesn't even come in it would happen even without the VH, all for land.

Now I understand all citations will mention their reluctance to kill Bhishma and Drona and not about normal people but I do believe the general notion of war is which stopped them. At that day and age, there was something romantic and glorified about war and mass murders. But my point here isn't that ARJUN cared about people, but the fact is stopping war would mean alot of people who didn't do any wrong would be spared. That's all. Simple anti war statements.

However what Arjun mentions before Geeta Gyan is all about his emotions, about his family. But can we also think of the complexity of emotion here? Not everyone was like Krishna who didn't have any family attachments but was just working for justice. It is difficult to choose between your grandfather and your wife. Or your uncle and your wife. It doesn't mean you love one over the other, but it is just a dilemma of emotions because it was a war of blood not words only. There's a reason why war is not desirable under any circumstances. Also, it meant probability of loss of their own children or brothers considering all were human.

Just because they didn't want war doesn't mean they didn't care about Draupadi. Also in this case Bheem - q and Arjun - 0 because Bheem at least did fight when je had to and did not show any remorse while at war. Arjun I believe still didn't do enough, moreover he was still reluctant to kill anyone and took days.

Panchali was not a blood thirsty beast. SHE TRIED FOR PEACE. SHE TRIED FOR PEACE. It is duryodhan who refused to show any remorse. Read the citation on first page read the citation again on third page hearmeroar posted panchali says to krishna that they did try for peace but duryodhan refused to budge it was only after this that pandavas wanted krishna was sent and panchali tell him that such people who has no remorse whatsoever of what he did deserves punishment not begging. And arjuna was only reluctant to kill bhism and drona. Had he not hesitate so much and killed them the first opportunity he got bloodshed could have been avoided it was also his misplaced sense of loyalty to people who clearly did not deserve it. When the war has started and all their try for peace failed then what was the reason to hesitate he could have given his 100% and could have avoided all the bloodshed all the destruction it took them 10 days to kill bhism 10 days and 5 days for drona. Bhim killed the rest in some 3 days time. Had arjuna participate fully both of them together could have finished this in 5 days. But no sir has to beg mercy for people who did not deserve bhism and drona did not deserve as a prominent warrior of his side job was to stand by his soldiers who left everything to fight for them. But no sir was busy begging mercy for his "father figure" who clearly never cared for him

Panchali never wanted war for her personal gain. She talks about duties of a emperor empress. Citation on first page.

How will begging mercy for drona some 14 15 days after war has already begun helped arjuna to stop mass scale destruction ?? War has already begun. I am not talking about his Intial hesitation but when the war has already started isn't it better to give your all help bhim to quickly complete it with much less bloodshed. ????

Bhishma and Drona deserved punishment for being mute spectators, why didn't YUDI deserve punishment for -

1 Staking Draupadi

2 Not renouncing his claim on his brother

3 Not renouncing his claim on her

^^^^^

Fighting under Yudi's flag, they are killing Bhishma for being a mute spectator?

If Mute spectators deserved Death in war -

What about Dhritrashtra?

Nakul?

Sahdev?

People who didn't participate in the war?

Now, Is death during a war punishment for a Kshatriya?

People who participated in war died, Not people who wronged Draupadi

Draupadi's sons, brothers and father died too

__________________________________________________

About Arjuna not doing anything in the war, one has to read War Parvas to know that he was unwilling to KILL Bhishma and Drona, He didn't hesitate fighting against anyone else. The citation I have provided show him fighting Duryodhan and Karna by remembering what they did to Draupadi

Killing people on day 1 - Well why didn't Bhima kill Duryodhan on day 1? None would've died

War is not as easy as kill people on day 1