-:Chat with Indrajit Bandyopadhyay:- Check page 2 - Page 11

Angirasa / Vasishta friction - can you elaborate? Which side did the clans support in the war? Why? Panchal's significance in the Brahmin conflict (since that seems to be the pivotal moment where Krishna decided to join forces with the Ps)?

Sir, thank you for taking time out and answering..

Originally posted by: indraajeet

@ devashree_h

"I would like to know your thoughts on Kunti, one of the most debated characters on this forum. There have been several questions raised on her decisions:
Her leaving infant Karna in the Ganga
Her asking to divide Draupadi without knowing(or did she?)
Her not telling her other sons about Karna, before the war was starting
Her choosing to tell Karna about who he actually was"

I consider Kunti a Revolutionary Woman ... she was the foremost preacher of the Rational Yuga Theory that Governance makes it all ... Good Governance is Satya-Yuga, and a Tyrant's rule is Kali Yuga ... isn't it fascinating and contemporary?

Well, Kunti never left Karna in the Ganges ... in Mbh. it is Ashvanadi ... and Karna floats along that river all the way to Ganges and then to Angadesh ... now, is this believable? It would mean Karna floated 800 km ... No hope! What I believe from the Text itself is that: Kunti-Bhoja gave away infant Karna to Adhiratha, who was actually Dhritarashatra's friend - sakha - and not "driver" ... now, Adhiratha actually belonged to the ruling class of Anga ... and this is one reason to believe that Karna's biological father was actually a man from Anga ... so, Karna becoming Adhiratha's son is actually a sort of home-coming ...

I don't think Mbh. preaches/teaches the idiocy of taking words at face-value .. so, even if Kunti said something like "divide the alm among yourselves", it could not be binding for her sons ...

Kunti's not revealing Karna's identity to her other sons is certainly her Political Self ... why do we deny her that Self? Karna or no Karna the war was inevitable ...

sir thanks again for taking out time to answer our queries

Bold - I am confused regarding what you are trying to say in the bold because the text itself states that Kunti floated Karna in the river.Though she does ask for him to be protected.Its the same in KMG and CE translation.He was protected because of his kavach and kundal

Do thou listen to the words Kunti weepingly uttered, while consigning the box to the waters of the river Aswa, 'O child, may good betide thee at the hands of all that inhabit the land, the water, the sky, and the celestial regions. May all thy paths be auspicious! May no one obstruct thy way! And, O son, may all that come across thee have their hearts divested of hostility towards thee: And may that lord of waters, Varuna. protect thee in water! And may the deity that rangeth the skies completely protect thee in the sky. And may, O son, that best of those that impart heat, viz., Surya, thy father, and from whom I have obtained thee as ordained by Destiny, protect thee everywhere! And may the Adityas and the Vasus, the Rudras and the Sadhyas, the Viswadevas and the Maruts, and the cardinal points with the great Indra and the regents presiding over them, and, indeed, all the celestials, protect thee in every place! Even in foreign lands I shall be able to recognise thee by this mail of thine! Surely, thy sire, O son, the divine Surya possessed of the wealth of splendour, is blessed, for he will with his celestial sight behold thee going down the current! Blessed also is that lady who will, O thou that are begotten by a god, take thee for her son, and who will give thee suck when thou art thirsty! And what a lucky dream hath been dreamt by her that will adopt thee for her son, thee that is endued with solar splendour, and furnished with celestial mail, and adorned with celestial ear-rings, thee that hast expansive eyes resembling lotuses, a complexion bright as burnished copper or lotus leaves, a fair forehead, and hair ending in beautiful curls! O son, she that will behold thee crawl on the ground, begrimed with dust, and sweetly uttering inarticulate words, is surely blessed! And she also, O son, that will behold thee arrive at thy youthful prime like maned lion born in Himalayan forests, is surely blessed!'"

"O king, having thus bewailed long and piteously, Pritha laid the basket on the waters of the river Aswa. And the lotus-eyed damsel, afflicted with grief on account of her son and weeping bitterly, with her nurse cast the basket at dead of night, and though desirous of beholding her son often and again, returned, O monarch, to the palate, fearing lest her father should come to know of what had happened. Meanwhile, the basket floated from the river Aswa to the river Charmanwati, and from the Charmanwati it passed to the Yamuna, and so on to the Ganga. And carried by the waves of the Ganga, the child contained in the basket came to the city of Champa ruled by a person of the Suta tribe. Indeed, the excellent coat of mail and those ear-rings made of Amrita that were born with his body, as also the ordinance of Destiny, kept the child alive."

And pardon my lack of knowledge but what does Ashvandi mean?

@ Maverick_me

8 years back I started constructing a chronology of Mbh based on info from the text ... it is titled "

MAHABHARATA CHRONOLOGY - Part-I" and you will find it at 'sulekha' ... google it ...

I have not yet published the part-2 ... it is still sleeping in my PC in draft form ...

I don't believe in the age given by ISKON ... to me it is illogical ...

my starting point in this argument is a sloka on Draupadi at the end of war ... she is said to be of "middle age" at that time ... now, taking "middle age" to be 45 we can back calculate to find Draupadi's age ... got it? I will check my draft and post the sloka if you need it ...

@ Sabhayata

going by the Dominant Narrative, what you say is right ... but Dominant Narrative is not all in Mbh ... pl read the Vana Parvan narrative carefully ... you will see that Kunti kept track of Karna ... now, would that have been possible if Kunti let Karna float way for 800 km?

My version is: after birth, Karna was dropped in water (a common ritual even today) and then given away to Adhiratha ... since Kunti knew Karna was growing up as Adhiratha's adopted son, and that Adhiratha frequented the Kuru Court, that might be one reason why Kunti fell in love with Pandu ... actually she wanted to be a Kuru wife so that she could always see Karna before her eyes ... and remember, Karna was in Hastinapur from quite early childhood ... his entry at the time of weapon exam was not at all his first entry in Hastina ... he was Duryo's friend long before that ..

I said "Asvanadi" that is, Asva River ... now, "nadi" is interesting metaphor ... it is river, it is arterial vein, and it is also metaphor for Woman ... so, Karna floated in Asva-Nadi might mean, he was given away to a trusted woman who then took him to Adhiratha ...

Besides, Ashva has also great metaphorical significance .. read the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad and you will find ... of course several Ashva metaphor is in Mbh too ...

regards
Indrajit

Originally posted by: LiveYourDream

Thank you for giving us your valuable time and great insights Professor!

I would like to know your take on Gandhari, another hot button topic currently.
Agreed she was a great wife who sacrificed so much for her husband...but her role as a mother is the question here. By blindfolding herself it seems to me like she figuratively blindfolded herself to the problems of her children as well.
And at the onset of the war she refused to bless her sons with victory and says those who are right will win...so she did not believe her sons were doing the right thing outright, but then why make Dury Vajrakaya? It kind of runs contrary to her blessings...

Bold sorry for the interruption i know the question is to Indrajit sir but just wanted to say Gandhari never made Dury's body like a Vajra.This story is not there in Mahabharat.Dury was actually better than Bhima in mace fight hence Bhima had to cheat to defeat him

Originally posted by: indraajeet

@ AnuMP

"I recently hear from someone that Kavach-Kundal may also have been a later interpolation. If so, why?"

I think the whole Karna-myth is courtesy the misinterpretation of the word "Karna" ... because it is often taken to mean "ear." However, "Karna" also means "Helmsman" i.e. Karnadhaara ... and I think that is the actual significance of Karna ... he was so called because he was the "Helmsman" of the Kauravas-Boat ... and pl remember, Boat/Ship Imagery is another significant Transcultural Imagery like Shepherd and Fisherman, and very much related ...

So, here we have Karna-Boatman as opposed to Krishna (Arjuna)-Shepherd/Fisherman ... the clash of two titanic imagery ...

Regarding some other significance of Karna, I have already explained that in Mbh. forum ..

Just giving some ideas here ...

If we split Karna etymologically, we have two morphemes ... Ka + rNa ...

Now, the whole Karna-myth is contained in that ... how? See...

1) Ka means Sun, and rNa means Water ... so, Ka + rNa = Sun floating on Water = Karna-myth (= the way he appears to Adhiratha and his wife)

2) Ka means Childish babbling', and rNa means Water ... Ka + rNa = Child babbling on Water = Karna-myth (= the way Adhiratha finds him)

3) Now, Karna can also be split as Ka+ Arani (= firestick = Metaphor for Sex = Metaphor for parents .. in Mbh. and Upanishads) ... and Ka also means "Who?" ...

So, Ka + Arani = Who is your parents? (= Adhiratha's question), or, "Whose biological son are you?" (= everybody's question about Karna)

4) Again, Karna = Ka + Arana (= distant land), .. so, Ka + Arana = "Who are you from distant land?" (= everybody's question) ... and so on ...

5) Even taking rNa in its commonest meaning of "debt," we get, Ka + rNa = "Whose debt are you?" = the same meaning as "Whose son are you?" (= everybody's question)

I guess, some later poet took Karna literally as "ear", and so considering his invincibility yet vulnerability, had to make him wear a Kundala that protected him and brought his end as well ...

If you read carefully the Suurya-Kunti episode in Vana Parvan, you will find that the Braahmana actually promises Kunti to give not only son but also ornaments ... the Kavacha was actually a valuable armour gifted by the Braahmana to Kunti in exchange of sex ... or, if that sounds harsh ... he tempted Kunti with valuable ornaments to lure her into sex ... we can definitely pardon a nine-year old Kunti for that, can't we?

Sir
Thanks for all this information i didnt know Karna could mean so many things

Now about the Kavach Kundal being an interpolation i somehow don't believe this

I have read your article on the killings of Bhishma,Karna and Drona

In that you say that in the duel between Karna and Arjuna,Arjuna breaks Karna's armor and hence it was interpolated that as Karna's armour was broken he would have given his Kavach and Kundla away

But Karna giving his Kavach and Kundal away is mentioned earlier than this in Drona parva after Gatotkacha's death itself by Krishna ji who tells Arjuna that now it will be easier for him to defeat Karna as his Kavach and Kundla were stolen and also his Indra shakti is gone

I guess the reason why it doesn't seem like an interpolation to me is because this incident is mentioned several times in different parva's and has inter linked stories as well

Karna giving away his Kavach and Kundal is mentioned atleast twice in Adi parva

Then in Vana parva itself when the actual incident is told.

And then again in Drona Parva

Also it has interlinked story of how Karna got Indra shakti in return for his KK which is ultimately used on Gato.There are several mentions of this Indra shakti as well .

So can something be still an interpolation if its mentioned in different parvas and has interlinked stories as well?i mean if soemthing is just mentioned once and has no connecting plots to it i can consider that as an interpolation like Draupad rejecting Karna its not mentioned any where in the epic excpet for once when it happens and its also not there in critical edition.But that is not the case with KK which is there in the critical edition as well

Regarding Surya and Kunti convo in vana parva its actually Kunti who asks Surya dev to give her son Kavach and Kundal

I dont remember Surya dev offering her anything other than that her virginity will remain intact

hereupon Kunti said, 'If, O dispeller of darkness, I obtain a son from thee, may he be furnished with a coat of mail and ear-rings, and may he be mighty-armed and endued with great strength!' Hearing these words of hers, Surya answered, 'O gentle maiden, thy son shall be mighty-armed and decked with ear-rings and a celestial coat of mail. And both his ear-rings and coat of mail will be made of Amrita, and his coat will also be invulnerable.' Kunti then said, 'If the excellent mail and ear-rings of the son thou wilt beget on me, be, indeed, made of Amrita, then, O god, O worshipful deity, let thy purpose be fulfilled! May he be powerful, strong, energetic, and handsome, even like thee, and may he also be endued with virtue!' Surya then said, 'O princess, O excellent damsel, these ear-rings had been given to me by Aditi. O timid lady, I will bestow them, as also this excellent mail, on thy son!' Kunti then said, 'Very well, O worshipful one! If my son, O lord of light, become so, I will, as thou sayest, gratify thee!'"

Originally posted by: indraajeet

@ Maverick_me

8 years back I started constructing a chronology of Mbh based on info from the text ... it is titled "

MAHABHARATA CHRONOLOGY - Part-I" and you will find it at 'sulekha' ... google it ...

I have not yet published the part-2 ... it is still sleeping in my PC in draft form ...

I don't believe in the age given by ISKON ... to me it is illogical ...

my starting point in this argument is a sloka on Draupadi at the end of war ... she is said to be of "middle age" at that time ... now, taking "middle age" to be 45 we can back calculate to find Draupadi's age ... got it? I will check my draft and post the sloka if you need it ...

@ Sabhayata

going by the Dominant Narrative, what you say is right ... but Dominant Narrative is not all in Mbh ... pl read the Vana Parvan narrative carefully ... you will see that Kunti kept track of Karna ... now, would that have been possible if Kunti let Karna float way for 800 km?

My version is: after birth, Karna was dropped in water (a common ritual even today) and then given away to Adhiratha ... since Kunti knew Karna was growing up as Adhiratha's adopted son, and that Adhiratha frequented the Kuru Court, that might be one reason why Kunti fell in love with Pandu ... actually she wanted to be a Kuru wife so that she could always see Karna before her eyes ... and remember, Karna was in Hastinapur from quite early childhood ... his entry at the time of weapon exam was not at all his first entry in Hastina ... he was Duryo's friend long before that ..

I said "Asvanadi" that is, Asva River ... now, "nadi" is interesting metaphor ... it is river, it is arterial vein, and it is also metaphor for Woman ... so, Karna floated in Asva-Nadi might mean, he was given away to a trusted woman who then took him to Adhiratha ...

Besides, Ashva has also great metaphorical significance .. read the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad and you will find ... of course several Ashva metaphor is in Mbh too ...

regards
Indrajit

Sir
middle age=45 can we consider middle age to mean what it means today even in Dwapar yug

For example its generally assumed that Abhimanyu was 16 years old when he died since its mentioned that he was killed when he was very young.But ages could mean different in Dwapar yug.Being young in Dwapar yug may not necessarily mean 16 years old.Abhimanyu was young by dwarpar yug standards but that doesn't mean he was a teenager by kalyug standards as well.I mean 30 or 40 years could be considered young in Dwapar yug.Because i dont see how Abhimayu could have been only 16 at time of the war?

Regarding Kunti ya i have read about Kunti knowing where Karna was in vana parva but its because she had her spies in different places keeping track of her son.Hence she knew.To me it seems like kunti let him afloat in the river and kavach and kundal protected him later she sent out her spies to find out about him and they did.I guess i am saying that the fact she knew that karna was being brought up as Adiratha's son doesn't necessarily mean she gave him away directly it could also mean that she came to know through her spies who adopted him as is suggested in the text

And seeing the child furnished with bright mail and golden ear-rings, the twice-born ones named him Vasusena. And thus did that child endued with great splendour and immeasurable prowess became the son of the charioteer, and came to be known as Vasusena and Vrisha. And Pritha learnt through spies that her own son clad in celestial mail was growing up amongst the Angas as the eldest son of a charioteer (Adhiratha)

Also regarding Karna and Dury knowing each other from before the weapon exam i know that there are citations that suggest the same and i do think they might have known each other some what since all were in Drona's gurukul but i am not sure if they were great friends sine childhood since when Karna enters the arena for the first time everyone is surprised to see him and no one seems to know who he is till he introduces himself.If Dury and Karna were good friends since childhood then i am sure Dury and even Pandvas and drona and kripa who asks karna to introduce himself would have known who he was when he entered the arena which no one did ?

Sir,
This is what I found regarding how the years in a person's life was divided in the DwaparaYuga...


In Dwapara Yuga, human beings lived upto 400 years. There are four stages in life - Balya, Youvana, Koumara and Vriddhapyam. In Dwaparyug, Balya stage was upto 40 years, Youvana stage upto 120 years, and later Koumara and Vriddhapyam stages. But now in the Kaliyuga, Balya stage is upto 15 years, Youvana upto 45 years, Koumara upto 60 years and Vriddhapyam beyond 60 years.

Source : http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/mahabharat/mahab_patnaik.html

So going by the above source would not 120+ years be considered middle age?

I think what it boils down to is whether we believe the same laws of physics and biology ruled the universe 5K years back.

One more question