-:Chat with Indrajit Bandyopadhyay:- Check page 2 - Page 10

Originally posted by: shindes

AND of course, the female Mahanayak - our fiery Empress Draupadi.

The 3 Krishnas reign at the top, (for me, atleast).

Me, too. Nothing like these 3 for me. 😎

Professor

Twelve labors of Hercules=Krishna theory.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by: devashree_h

Me, too. Nothing like these 3 for me. 😎

These three epitomize the epic for me too, though Bheem comes a very close second

Originally posted by: Maverick_me

Veda Vyasa presents all five brothers as heroes , they all are 'Jaya'
Their secret names in Virat parva :
Jaya, Jayanta , Vijaya, Jayadvala, Jayatsena so they all are heroes . Vyasa says those who want to achieve Vijaya / victory over self , one has to read Jaya!
Who do we want to consider a hero is individual perception .. even the 'anti-heroes' are heroes to somebody...

Bold well in that way Yudi will be the hero because as per Jaya he is the only one who gains victory over himself when he takes a dip in ganga(or may be some other river dont remember the name) and lets go of all the hatred against his cousin's.And infact Jaya ends with that.

But Mahabharta is so complex with so many character's playing different role each having their own qualities and flaws that its difficult to call one person as a hero.

In the end its each to his own i think its how one looks at the epic,interprets it and one connects to the charcters that determines the hero which is different for everyone .That is how complex this epic is

But i would say that Pandavas are the main protagonists since they occupy maximum space in the epic

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

Bold well in that way Yudi will be the hero because as per Jaya he is the only one who gains victory over himself when he takes a dip in ganga(or may be some other river dont remember the name) and lets go of all the hatred against his cousin's.And infact Jaya ends with that.

But Mahabharta is so complex with so many character's playing different role each having their own qualities and flaws that its difficult to call one person as a hero.

In the end its each to his own i think you

But i would say that Pandavas are the main protagonists since they occupy maximum space in the epic

That is Devdutt Pattanaik's interpretation in his book Jaya..

@ devashree_h

"I would like to know your thoughts on Kunti, one of the most debated characters on this forum. There have been several questions raised on her decisions:
Her leaving infant Karna in the Ganga
Her asking to divide Draupadi without knowing(or did she?)
Her not telling her other sons about Karna, before the war was starting
Her choosing to tell Karna about who he actually was"

I consider Kunti a Revolutionary Woman ... she was the foremost preacher of the Rational Yuga Theory that Governance makes it all ... Good Governance is Satya-Yuga, and a Tyrant's rule is Kali Yuga ... isn't it fascinating and contemporary?

Well, Kunti never left Karna in the Ganges ... in Mbh. it is Ashvanadi ... and Karna floats along that river all the way to Ganges and then to Angadesh ... now, is this believable? It would mean Karna floated 800 km ... No hope! What I believe from the Text itself is that: Kunti-Bhoja gave away infant Karna to Adhiratha, who was actually Dhritarashatra's friend - sakha - and not "driver" ... now, Adhiratha actually belonged to the ruling class of Anga ... and this is one reason to believe that Karna's biological father was actually a man from Anga ... so, Karna becoming Adhiratha's son is actually a sort of home-coming ...

I don't think Mbh. preaches/teaches the idiocy of taking words at face-value .. so, even if Kunti said something like "divide the alm among yourselves", it could not be binding for her sons ...

Kunti's not revealing Karna's identity to her other sons is certainly her Political Self ... why do we deny her that Self? Karna or no Karna the war was inevitable ...

@ Urmila11

I wouldn't argue on something like "actual hero" ... Vyaasa imitates life as it is ... so, all heroes are at times cowards, and all cowards do have their occasional share of heroism ... the war episodes clearly point to these ... even Duhshashana is once compared with Vishnu ... Would Vyaasa do that if he wanted to give us a dose of Hero/Coward polarity only?

@ Maverick_me

No reason to disagree with your interpretation of Jaya ... however, I suggest there is another dimension to Jaya ...

Other than a name, Jaya is also the name of Gotra ... rather a sub-Gotra of the Vashishthas ... Now, do you get the connection? Vyaasa is a Vashishtha-Gotra ... so, by the title Jaya, Vyaasa might be singing the glory of his own Gotra as well ... and this is the "character Vyaasa" ... that is, the Human and Political Vyaasa ...

Interestingly, "Indra" is another sub-Gotra of the Vashishtha-family ... so, Pandavas as Indra, or Pandavas as Jaya ... all the roads lead to Rome ... the Vashishthas ...

@ AnuMP

"Twelve labors of Hercules=Krishna theory."

Megasthenes' Indica mentions Heracles worship in India ... scholars interpret it bothways ... if some westerners think that Krishna is only model of Hercules, we may think it the other way as well ...

I personally think, Hero-myth is transcultural, so it is natural to have so much in common ... taming wild beast, taming natural force and taming "Reptile" ... these have to be common ... even our PM is supposed to have "tamed" a crocodile ... aren't we getting back Arjuna here? Arjuna is the foremost "crocodile hunter" in Mbh. ...

Think of "Christ" and "Krishto (= Krishna)" ... actually, the root kR is of significance ... we get a whole lot from it ... kR = Krishi (agriculture = Balarama and Krishna) = Culture (that is, kRshti ... and Krishna as Renaissance Man certainly represents that) = Karma (again Krishna via Karma-Yoga = Giita)

Think also of the common Traditional Imagery and Transcultural too ... the Shepherd and Fisherman ... Krishna and Christ represent both ... Arjuna as "crocodile hunter" is also Fisherman ... and that relates to the Matsyanyaya imagery ... one who is both Inside-Outside a System ... leading us back to the Giita Philosophy ...

So, if someone says that Krishna's feats are just "copy" of Hercules, let us tell them, Christ is "copy" of Krishna ...

regards
Indrajit

N.B - sorry, couldn't participate in this interesting discussion for sometime ...

Thx. I had actually thought that the story of Hercules started somewhere in the 1000s BC. I didn't know that there were claims that Krishna was a copy of Hercules.

I recently hear from someone that Kavach-Kundal may also have been a later interpolation.

Thank you for giving us your valuable time and great insights Professor!

I would like to know your take on Gandhari, another hot button topic currently.
Agreed she was a great wife who sacrificed so much for her husband...but her role as a mother is the question here. By blindfolding herself it seems to me like she figuratively blindfolded herself to the problems of her children as well.
And at the onset of the war she refused to bless her sons with victory and says those who are right will win...so she did not believe her sons were doing the right thing outright, but then why make Dury Vajrakaya? It kind of runs contrary to her blessings...

@ AnuMP

"It's interesting to see how the need for heroes is the same across cultures."

Fully agree with you ... however, in ancient Indian Culture, there is also the need for Heroines ... thus in RigVeda, we not only have Goddesses as consort of Hero-Gods, we also have the Female-avatara of that very Male-God. For example, there is at least one Rk in RgVeda in which Indra is called "Devii" ... just think of that ... again, like Indra, Devii Saraswati is also Vrtra-killer ... we may say, Saraswati is "Indra" too ... and if you remember, after the Kuru-war, Vyaasa allows many Woman to rule kingdoms ... so, Margaret Thatcher or Indira Gaandhi is nothing new ... we had aplenty before ...

"I recently hear from someone that Kavach-Kundal may also have been a later interpolation. If so, why?"

I think the whole Karna-myth is courtesy the misinterpretation of the word "Karna" ... because it is often taken to mean "ear." However, "Karna" also means "Helmsman" i.e. Karnadhaara ... and I think that is the actual significance of Karna ... he was so called because he was the "Helmsman" of the Kauravas-Boat ... and pl remember, Boat/Ship Imagery is another significant Transcultural Imagery like Shepherd and Fisherman, and very much related ...

So, here we have Karna-Boatman as opposed to Krishna (Arjuna)-Shepherd/Fisherman ... the clash of two titanic imagery ...

Regarding some other significance of Karna, I have already explained that in Mbh. forum ..

Just giving some ideas here ...

If we split Karna etymologically, we have two morphemes ... Ka + rNa ...

Now, the whole Karna-myth is contained in that ... how? See...

1) Ka means Sun, and rNa means Water ... so, Ka + rNa = Sun floating on Water = Karna-myth (= the way he appears to Adhiratha and his wife)

2) Ka means Childish babbling', and rNa means Water ... Ka + rNa = Child babbling on Water = Karna-myth (= the way Adhiratha finds him)

3) Now, Karna can also be split as Ka+ Arani (= firestick = Metaphor for Sex = Metaphor for parents .. in Mbh. and Upanishads) ... and Ka also means "Who?" ...

So, Ka + Arani = Who is your parents? (= Adhiratha's question), or, "Whose biological son are you?" (= everybody's question about Karna)

4) Again, Karna = Ka + Arana (= distant land), .. so, Ka + Arana = "Who are you from distant land?" (= everybody's question) ... and so on ...

5) Even taking rNa in its commonest meaning of "debt," we get, Ka + rNa = "Whose debt are you?" = the same meaning as "Whose son are you?" (= everybody's question)

I guess, some later poet took Karna literally as "ear", and so considering his invincibility yet vulnerability, had to make him wear a Kundala that protected him and brought his end as well ...

If you read carefully the Suurya-Kunti episode in Vana Parvan, you will find that the Braahmana actually promises Kunti to give not only son but also ornaments ... the Kavacha was actually a valuable armour gifted by the Braahmana to Kunti in exchange of sex ... or, if that sounds harsh ... he tempted Kunti with valuable ornaments to lure her into sex ... we can definitely pardon a nine-year old Kunti for that, can't we?

"Also can you elaborate on the Brahmin v Brahmin war you have mentioned in some of your articles?"

The Brahmin v Brahmin war is always a glaring reality in Mbh. ... we are so pre-occupied with the Kshatriyas that we miss it ...

Think of the episode when Duryodhana is coronating Karna ... some Braahmins perform the ritual ... clearly said in Mbh. ... now, how could these Braahmins do that before the very nose of Bhiisma, Drona and Kripacharya unless they were a powerful lobby?

My Brahmin v Brahmin war Theory is actually based on the very structure of RgVeda ... where 60% suktas are composed by the Angirasa family ... next comes the Vashishthas and then Bhrgus ... the other Rishi families are rather marginalized ...

If we consider Vyaasa as the "editor" of Vedas, we get an answer here ... the Angirasa and Vashishthas domination is courtesy Vyaasa ... and that also explains why Ashvathama (a Bharadwaja-Angiraasa) and Kripacharya (a Gautama Angiraasa) are pardoned ... remember that Vashishthas means "the best" ... it is therefore, possible that Vyaasa's ancestors separated themselves from the Angiraasas with claim of supremacy ..

Regarding Brahmin v Brahmin war, we have the much known Vashishthas vs. Visvamitra war ... isn't it indicative that Amir Khan could not have said "AALL IS WELL" with the Braahmanas of yore?

@ LiveYourDream

"By blindfolding herself it seems to me like she figuratively blindfolded herself to the problems of her children as well"

Wholeheartedly agree with you ...

More on this later pl ... feeling sleepy now ... good morning ...

Regards

Indrajit