-#::: Hiranyavarma Radheya - Aham Sharma - AT 29 :::#- - Page 25

Originally posted by: vaikartana

Haayee!!This JaSh😛is making my head overloaded

What did you eat this morning?😆

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

What did you eat this morning?😆

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Jamy, doesn't make sense then, since Arjun & Karna had exchanged Brahmastras in the past as well, that day itself.Why would Karna, desperate to save himself, try invoking a weapon that Arjun has successfully countered in the past?

Karna was trying to do what Ashwatthama tried 2 days later, w/ greater success. Had Karna invoked the Brahmashira weapon successfully, Arjun would have been forced to invoke his, and the result would have been something similar as Ashwatthama's (except that Karna wouldn't likely have directed it against any women).

I'm not discarding your idea. It really makes sense if he had been trying to remember Brahmashiras.
But what I've been trying to say is why it can't be like Karna got neither cursed nor forgot?
The curses of Karna can surely be blamed for causing his death. Because Karna being almost invincible in war, he could be killed by unfair means only; which will make the killer (more his advisor) be called forever cheater, wicked and coward. When there are curses that he will forget his weapons while fighting with someone of equal strength & the earth will engulf his chariot's wheel at his time of death, makes his death already fixed by some unknown forces, and that in turn sets Arjuna & Krishna from being accused as both of them were unknown to the curses & they only acted as the situation needed which cannot be questioned given the background of curses as Karna's fate was already fixed.
The truth, for me, is Krishna, knowing Arjuna (though not impossible) will not be able to easily kill Karna, chose a place for their fight in such a way that the loose earth where Karna stood will slowly turn into a quicksand that would engulf Karna's cart. Quicksands are found only around any source of water, but a hidden spring could also create quicksand in surprising places. This was not impossible in Kurukshetra as the land was in the floodplain of Sarasvati river and also between the Sarasvati & Drishadvati rivers. Drishadvati joined Sarasvati not too far away from the place which makes the underground hidden springs also possible. A quicksand, though it might not be present at a place, can suddenly occure, if a sudden change in pressure or shock initiates the porous pressure to raise, get the underground water raise, mix it with sand, creating a quicksand, if the place is having a shallow ground water level. Kurukshetra, being in the floodplain of the big river Sarasvati, and also not too far from Drishadvati, surely had shallow groundwater levels.
Krishna who was jumping with joy at Ghato baby's death, surely was not a fool who didn't know this trick of water. Either Arjuna or the quicksand, would surely have killed Karna there. Krishna chose Arjuna as the quicksand would take its time which obviously was fatal to Arjuna.
And I'm a person who never believes in curses. I believe, if you hurt someone's feelings, if the hurt person is not truly deserving the hurt by any means of morality, surely what you did to that person will turn the tables on you. But that is Karma phala. Not any curse. I don't see any reason for the Brahmana's curse. The cow of that Brahmana was for his daily sacrifice which meant it will be killed anyhow. So how could he curse Karna when he already decide to kill it? I'm very much suspicious about this curse. I'll write something on it later!

The below is the event of the curse of Brahmana.
One day he roved on the sea-coast by the side of that asylum. Indeed, Surya's son, armed with bow and sword, wandered alone, While thus employed, O Partha, he inadvertently slew, without witting it, the Homa cow of a certain utterer of Brahma who daily performed his Agnihotra rite. Knowing that he had perpetrated that act from inadvertence, he informed the Brahmana of it. Indeed Karna, for the object of gratifying the owner, repeatedly said, 'O holy one, I have killed this thy cow without wilting it. Forgive me the act!' Filled with wrath, the Brahmana, rebuking him, said these words, 'O thou of wicked conduct, thou deservest to be killed. Let the fruit of this act be thine, O thou of wicked soul. While fighting him, O wretch whom thou always challengest, and for whose sake thou strivest so much every day, the earth shall swallow the wheel of thy car! And while the wheel of thy car shall thus be swallowed up by the earth, thy foe, putting forth his prowess, will cut off thy head, thyself being stupefied the while! Leave me, O vile man! As thou hast heedlessly slain this my cow, even so wilt thy foe cut off thy head while thou shalt be heedless!' Though cursed, Karna still sought to gratify that foremost of Brahmanas by offering him kine and wealth and gems. The latter, however, once more answered him, 'All the words will not succeed in falsifying the words spoken by me! Go hence or remain, do whatever thou likest.' Thus addressed by the Brahmana, Karna, hanging down his head from cheerlessness, returned timidly to Rama, reflecting on that matter.

My doubts.
1. How did the intelligent and attentive Karna kill the cow 'without witting it'?
2. When the circumstances leading to killing the cow was not clear, how could the Brahmana curse Karna's cart wheel would sink in the earth? Did Karna do euthanasia of the cow which was engulfed in some quicksand?😆
3. Cow is not a small animal for to be killed so easily. You need to chase it and kill unless it is not tied to something. No person is a fool to shoot a harmless cow. Moreover, one can recognise a cow even from behind. Isn't it impossible to kill a cow 'unknowingly'? So how can Karna be cursed for getting beheaded? It is not told whether the cow was beheaded which was impossible without seeing it. Had he seen it, he would never have killed the cow.
4. When Karna told none of his personal matters to the Brahmana, how did this man know there was someone who Karna always challenged, for the sake of who Karna strived everyday?
5. As the Brahmana said - "thy foe, putting forth his prowess, will cut off thy head, thyself being stupefied the while!" - & also - "even so wilt thy foe cut off thy head while thou shalt be heedless!"; isn't it clear that this man already had Poorvabhasas of Parashurama's curse which was yet to happen.😲.😲.😲??? The cow didn't know Karna was coming to attack it so that it didn't try to escape. Neither it was confused seeing him. Okay. I shall assume the cow got 'stupefied' by Karna's beauty (he was the bull among men, wasn't he?) and was 'heedless' thinking 'let me die with the hands of this hawwt bull among men!'.

The curse appears to be only a fabricated version of Karna's death. Nothing more. Karna neither killed a cow, nor any Brahmana cursed him.😆

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

On whether Karna was taught by Drona, given that the citations conflict, I believe what Watcher once concluded: that Karna learnt elementary archery from Drona, but sensing Drona's partiality towards Arjun, left him to study divyastras under Parashurama.

That still puts me in dilemma for the following reasons.
1. Considering reactions of everyone in Rangabhoomi, it is clear no one knew Karna before. So he surely did not study along with princes of HP. Also in the Arena, Karna 'indifferently' saluted Drona & Kripa which means he never knew any of them. Had he been their student at any stage, Karna would never have given an 'indifferent' salute to them.
2. If we're considering Karna went to Drona before Drona reached HP, still there are problems. Drona lived around the source of Ganga until he went Mahendra mountains to learn more from Parashurama. Before that, he is not mentioned as teaching anyone anywhere though it is said he continued to reside in his hermitage in the source of Ganga, devoted himself to the study of the science of arms. From Parashurama, Drona directly goes to meet Drupada who insults him in the worst way. Considering Drona's knowledge and skills, if he had been a Guru already, Drupada would never have dared to insult him. Also from the way Drona introduces himself to Parashurama & Bheeshma, it is clear that he was recognised nowhere before.
3. Also, if we consider Karna went to Parashurama after Rangabhoomi incident, still the problem exists how could Karna have lied to Parashurama 'know me as a Brahmana of Bhrigu's race'? He was already the famous Angaraja, which made him impossible to be not recognised with K-K.

Hence, I think Karna learnt everything only under Parashurama which is clearly mentioned by Suyodhana in Karna Parva!
"'Duryodhana continued, "Having obtained all the celestial weapons and the boons that had been desired by him, Rama bowed unto Siva with his head. Obtaining the leave also of the gods that great ascetic went away. This is the old story that the rishi had recited. The descendant of Bhrigu gave the whole science of weapons unto the high-souled Karna, O tiger among kings with delighted heart. If Karna had any fault, O lord of Earth, the delighter of Bhrigu's race would never have given him his celestial weapons. I do not think that Karna could have been born in the Suta order. I think him to be the son of a god, born in the kshatriya order. I think that he was abandoned (in infancy) in order that the race in which he was born might be ascertained (by his features and feats). By no means, O Shalya, could this Karna have been born in the Suta order. With his (natural) earring and (natural) coat of mail, this mighty car-warrior of long arms, resembling Surya himself, could not be borne by a common woman even as a she-deer can never bear a tiger. His arms are massive, each resembling the trunk of a prince of elephants. Behold his chest that is so broad and capable of resisting every foe. Karna otherwise called Vaikartana, O king, cannot be an ordinary person. Endued with great valour, this disciple of Rama, O king of kings, is a high-souled personage.'"

A careful and thorough read of this speech of Suyodhana clearly says--
1. Karna learnt completely under Parashurama only & the curse part is mostly a later addition.
2. Suyodhana firmly believed Karna was a Kshatriya, but abandoned when he was an infant.
3. Though not so clear, we can assume Suyodhana also thought Karna was born to Surya, but he didn't know who was the real mother of Karna.

So there is some truth in 'Every criminal cannot destroy every evidence'! 😆

Originally posted by: vaikartana

Diala di and Jamy JaSh is a new name which I coined for the duo who overloads our AT with lots of informative posts Jamy and vriSh

😲That is so sweet of you, Vani.🤗 It reminds me of an old duo of which I was a part. You surely had something great in today's breakfast.😆

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

A careful and thorough read of this speech of Suyodhana clearly says--
1. Karna learnt completely under Parashurama only & the curse part is mostly a later addition.
2. Suyodhana firmly believed Karna was a Kshatriya, but abandoned when he was an infant.
3. Though not so clear, we can assume Suyodhana also thought Karna was born to Surya, but he didn't know who was the real mother of Karna.

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

Okay. I shall assume the cow got 'stupefied' by Karna's beauty (he was the bull among men, wasn't he?) and was 'heedless' thinking 'let me die with the hands of this hawwt bull among men!'.