Kunti's Dilemma: Karna or Arjun - Page 4

Originally posted by: shruthiravi

I do not find fault with her for abandoning the child. She was far too immature to handle such a decision at the young age and the societal pressures would have added to her woes

Now let me consider her situation when she saw Karna later in life. She was the mother of 5 Pandavas. What if she decided to tell the truth. How would Pandavas would have taken it. As seen we know that all the 5 pandavas revere Kunti. They treated her as the epitome of virtue. So to such grown up sons how can a mother tell that before she married their father she had a son. She would have feared the consequences of losing her son's love and faith. And at that point that was all Kunti had. She was widowed at a young age. Her children were constantly at threat from Kauravas. They were her only hope. So I take it as the fact that she didnt accept Karna because of fear of oscatratcation by her other 5 children.

Now coming to Karna. Karna is the classic example of a right person in wrong company. If one view his life he was a person with values unlike Duryodhana and Shakuni who were pure evil. But unfortunately for him the way he took their help made him in the bad company. His life is also an example that " All that glitters is not gold ". I mean in those days caste system was very rigid. So the fact that Duryodhana and Shakuni made him a king should have rung alarm bells in him, that indeed they want something from him out of the way. It's a true learning to everyone in present era also that if we are getting something which doesnt seem right, beware, observe before accepting the offer. Else you will also end up like Karna who could have lived a glorious life, but had to compromise everytime on the values because of the help he took.

Now coming to Kunti telling the truth to Karna and come to Pandava side. As far as I understand it , it is Krishna who forces her to do that. It was a 2 way strategy by Krishna. If Karna accepts the proposal then war can be won without any major bloodshed. As with Karna in Pandava side Duryodhana would not have dared to go for the war as Kauravas had no reply to Arjuna.

If Karna didnt accept then Krishna had succeeded in weakneing Karna and indeed Karna does give Kunti a boon that she will always have 5 sons and he will kill only Arjuna. So Karna vowing not to kill 4 of the Pandava brothers was a major diplomatic coup by Krishna, which otherwise would have been a different story.

So Kunti according to me was no saint. She did things as she thought right as per the circumstances. She didnt show any partiality to Nakul or Sahadeva. She raised the 5 Pandavas equally well and have been able to instill good values in them. I would say she was a human with faults who was tested by destiny from a very young age.

very well written enjoyed reading it!

if people have a bit of patience

leadnitrate something new to ponder abt! nice post btw

Originally posted by: LeadNitrate

i

Perhaps, Karna too knew about Kunti's affair' and her lost child,' though he could not be certain whether it was himself, until Krishna confirmed his idea! That is why when Krishna tells him that he was indeed Kunti's son, Karna replied (SECTION CXLI of UDYOGA PARVA) -" 'Without doubt, O Kesava, thou hast said these words from thy love, affection, and friendship for me, as also in consequence of thy desire of doing me good, O thou of Vrishni's race. I know all that thou hast said unto me. Morally, I am the son of Pandu, as also in consequence of the injunctions of the scriptures, as thou, O Krishna, thinkest. My mother, while a maiden, bore me in her womb, O Janardana, through her connection with Surya. And at the command of Surya himself, she abandoned me as soon as I was born. "

Karna's version of the story throws a new light to what we knew so far! Karna is confident of his version that Kunti abandoned him at the command of Surya himself! So, had Karna been misbehaving with the Pandavas so long only to force Kunti to come out with the Truth?

hmmm no like you said yourself there could have been rumors about kunti having a child before marriage but no one was sure neither was karna. so how could he have misbehaved with pandavs on purpose?

In fact it was krishna ji who told him that as per scriptures he is pandu's son and kunti is his mother and before that he tells him that kunti was a maiden when she had him.So only thing karan knew on his own was that surya dev was his father.This could be due to the rumours but rest all krishna ji only told him and after that he says the dialogues you posted

Vasudeva said, 'O son of Radha, thou hast worshipped many Brahmanas fully conversant with the Vedas. With concentrated attention and mind free from envy thou hast also (on many an occasion) enquired of them after truth. Thou knowest, therefore, O Karna, what the eternal saying of the Vedas are. Thou art also well-versed in all the subtle conclusions of the scriptures. It is said by those conversant with the scriptures that the two kinds of sons called Kanina and Sahoda that are born of a maiden, have him for their father who weddeth the maid. Thou, O Karna, hast been born in this way. Thou art, therefore, morally the son of Pandu. Come, be a king, according to the injunction of the scriptures. On the side of thy father, thou hast the sons of Pritha, on the side of thy mother, thou hast the Vrishnis, (for thy kinsmen). O bull among men, know that thou hast these two for thy own. Proceeding this very day with me hence, O sire, let the Pandavas know thee as a son of Kunti born before Yudhishthira. The brothers, the five Pandavas, the son of Draupadi, and the invincible son of Subhadra, will all embrace thy feet. All the kings and princes, again, that have been assembled for the Pandava-cause, and all the Andhakas and Vrishnis, will also embrace thy feet

@LeadNitrate- In the same section that you described Karna knowing that kunti abandoned him considering surya's order . He says following lines to Krishna too." Kunti, however, abandoned me without thinking of my welfare. " ( taken from CXLI , Udyog Parva)While what I could understand from what he is saying , Kunti didnt want the child as she was unmarried and perhaps Suryadev suggested her this way.. but that doesnt lessen her folly to me.. She was at fault and Karna also says similar things when Kunti comes to him before war.. as far as i remember he does say that you put an infant's life in danger.Karna didnt plan his hatred towards pandavas.. it happened because of what transpired between them in rangbhoomi and how continuously pandavas did insult him of his low caste and kind of increased because of duryodhana's friendship. Yes he did have this ambition too of becoming supreme archer which led him to envy Arjun more ..

I think I read this article long time back.. I donno how much the analysis is sensible..

Originally posted by: LeadNitrate

if people have a bit of patience

they can go through this article, which discusses in details about who the father of karna was, why kunti abandoned karna and why she did not speak up later

http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Content&sd=Articles&ArticleID=1439

Some excerpts

++++++++++++++++++++++

one dialogue of Duryodhana in SECTION LXI of UDYOGA PARVA - "The gods attained to their divinity for absence of desire, covetousness, and of enmity, as also for their indifference to all worldly affairs. Formerly, Dwaipayana-Vyasa and Narada of great ascetic austerities, and Rama, the son of Jamadagni, told us this. The gods never like human beings engage in work, O bull of the Bharata race,from desire, or wrath, or covetousness, or envy. Indeed, if Agni, or Vayu, or Dharma, or Indra, or the Aswins had ever engaged themselves in works from worldly desire, then the sons of Pritha could never have fallen into distress. Do not, therefore, by any means, indulge in such anxiety, because the gods, O Bharata, always set their eyes on affairs worthy of themselves."

This dialogue not only shows Duryodhana's disbelief in the God-fathers' of the Pandavas, but also opens up new possibilities. It is very interesting that Duryodhana does not mention "Surya", but mentions "Agni!" Now, in the Rig Veda, Agni is often synonymous to Angiras, and Angirasas are often addressed as Demi-Gods!

Duryodhana's mention of Gods - Agni, Vayu, or Dharma, or Indra, or the Aswins - takes the number to six'! Did he know that Kunti had another child born before her marriage, though he certainly did not know who he was? So, we can guess, there were speculations doing the round about Kunti's pre-marital affair' and her lost child.' That Kunti's secret became an open secret' is probable given the fact that she lived with the maidens! Women were perhaps, already cursed before Yudhishthira cursed Kunti - henceforth no woman shall succeed in keeping a secret.' (SECTION VI, SHANTI PARVA) It was known to Duryodhana then, that Kunti had a son by one Angiras! What a shock would it have been for him to learn that his strongest ally and friend was indeed that lost child!' Destiny spared him that shock!

Perhaps, Karna too knew about Kunti's affair' and her lost child,' though he could not be certain whether it was himself, until Krishna confirmed his idea! That is why when Krishna tells him that he was indeed Kunti's son, Karna replied (SECTION CXLI of UDYOGA PARVA) -" 'Without doubt, O Kesava, thou hast said these words from thy love, affection, and friendship for me, as also in consequence of thy desire of doing me good, O thou of Vrishni's race. I know all that thou hast said unto me. Morally, I am the son of Pandu, as also in consequence of the injunctions of the scriptures, as thou, O Krishna, thinkest. My mother, while a maiden, bore me in her womb, O Janardana, through her connection with Surya. And at the command of Surya himself, she abandoned me as soon as I was born. "

Karna's version of the story throws a new light to what we knew so far! Karna is confident of his version that Kunti abandoned him at the command of Surya himself! So, had Karna been misbehaving with the Pandavas so long only to force Kunti to come out with the Truth?

Now, to my second focus of discussion - Why Kunti had sex with this man? Or why was she attracted to him? Was she raped?

In the SECTION XC of UDYOGA PARVA, Kunti laments In the matter of my present sorrows, however, I blame neither myself nor Suyodhana, but my father alone. Like a wealthy man giving away a sum of money in gift, my father gave me away to Kuntibhoja. While a child playing with a ball in my hands, thy grandfather, O Kesava, gave me away to his friend, the illustrious Kuntibhoja'.

This shows her great sorrows at not having got the warmth of love from her real father. Her referring to Kuntibhoja as Kuntibhoja', and not as father', shows her cold formal relationship with him, as also her disgust for him for having thrown her into such a predicament!

So, Kunti had to abandon the child under duress. Didn't she protest? Well, perhaps! But, in Kunti, fear' always pre-dominates her maternal instincts! When fear' is in, maternal instinct' is out! We have at least another clue in support of this. In SECTION CXXIII of ADI PARVA, one day after Bhima was born; he was sleeping in Kunti's lap. He fell from the lap because Kunti, frightened by a tiger, had risen up suddenly, unconscious of the child that lay asleep on her lap. And as she had risen, the infant, of body hard as the thunderbolt, falling down upon the mountain breast, broke into a hundred fragments the rocky mass upon which he fell.' Our attention is taken away by Bhima's strength! But isn't it natural, we may ask( and never can be sure!), that Kunti should have grasped and clasped Bhima deep into her breast instead of causing him fall being unconscious of the child that lay asleep on her'? A motherunconscious of her child! -

From his father's side, Karna is always already' a Puru! Karna has Bharadwaja-Angira blood in him just like Bhisma and Drona! That explains, other than why all three fought for the Kuru-side (though Bhisma has an exceptional motive!), Karna's importance to the Kuru-side, Drona's breaking of nations' of Panchala, as well as the causes of marginalization of Bhisma in Hastinapura politics! The Kuru-war hides beneath its Khshyatriya garb a war of the Brahmanas, with liberal-cosmopolitan-Samannbyapanthi Vashishtha-Bhrigu-Certain break-away Angira gotras like Kanva, Ghora and Garga Angiras alliance under Vyasa's leadership on one side, and the orthodox Bharadwaja-Gautama Angiras on the other!

Bhisma Parva, Drona Parva and Karna Parva were re-written by latter Bharadwaja-Gautama Angirasa poets, to malign Krishna and Arjuna, by the re-creation of mythical propaganda that Bhisma, Drona and Karna were killed in Adharma Yuddha,' by Krishna's immoral cunningness!

I quoted selected parts of artici, I think if you read the whole, maybe it will make more sesnse?? @ riti and diala.