'Mahabharat- Different Versions -Perspectives' - Page 78

Originally posted by: AnuMP

Sabhayata

All the things you mentioned make him human. What makes him the great king he was supposed to be?

Originally posted by: ...Diala...

That is confusing and debatable.. but the answer I have for myself is that he respected and served Brahmins.. which is the biggest punya.. thanks to the varna system..

the amazement is yet to leave me.. when I read he staked everything and everyone in his country except the Brahmins and their property.. may be his this dedication to the varna system is what made him 'dharmaraj'.. JMO..

Originally posted by: AnuMP

Thanks Diala for posting, I thought the thread was dead.

DharmaRaj - So, far these are the answers I got. He had thorough knowledge of scriptures, he served the priesthood well. Not certain any of that makes him great. The best by far, was that he learned from his mistakes - plausible, because once he committed himself to the war there was no dillydallying. All regrets came afterward. And thereafter, he seemed to commit himself to the welfare of the praja.

What bugs me are superlatives like DS was not really his fault because as raja he had the right to stake his praja (not just his family). They werent his slaves. The fact that he excluded the Brahmins from this (which I didnt know till now) makes it worse. The ethos of the era let him walk away from that sin; but then blindly following accepted practice is not a sign of greatness. Thats why, IMO, there was only one great person in the DS, the only one person who questioned Yudhishtir's right to do that. Then there is the part about his chariot being 1/2 inch off the ground,till Drona vadh, as though KP and DS were episodes to be flicked off!😲

As for Bheeshma, I dont think he is a bad character. I do think he took the easy way out of difficult decisions. Let me quote here, 'If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have taken the side of oppressor'. I think the Yuganta essays conclude the same about him.

But I am curious, even if Bheeshma was celibate, his stepbro was not. After all kidnapping Amba was done for Vichitraveerya. Or did the HP folks do a reverse Shalva and consider her ruined

And thanks for posting Raguram. Loved your perspective on what Drau might have hoped for, going into the war

@ashne

Originally posted by: AnuMP

@ashne

At Kamyaka Van when Krishna met them after DS/VH, there was an angry convo but it seems directed at the Kauravas. Bheem does read him the riot act a few years into VanaParva

Note that I am basing these statements on RM's Modern MB. I dont have the patience to read through KMG or CE

@ashne

Originally posted by: AnuMP

@ashne

This is Krishna to Yudhishtir after the war per RM. So, he does give them a piece of his mind, only he saved it for the end😆

Listen to me now and hear me well. Years ago in the Kamyaka vana, I wiped the tears from Draupadi's eyes and I swore to her I would bring death to those that had tormented her.

Yudhishtira, you did not seem to mind that your wife had been humiliated in the sabha of Hastinapura. You only spoke of the dharma or the adharma of what happened. You allowed these beasts to drag her into that court, to revile her, to try to strip her naked. And you would not let Bheema kill them, as they deserved, because you said it was not dharma. It seems that to you there were other things more important than Panchali's tears.

But to me, Yudhishtira, there was nothing in the world more momentous than her tears. I swore I would kill those that had made her cry. Bheeshma and Drona never raised a hand, never spoke a word to help her; for that, they have died.

I believe in only one thing: the tears of the oppressed must be wiped and justice given to them. Draupadi could hardly help herself against the men who abused her and not even her husbands were sure that they would redress what she had endured. But not I. I said I would kill the devils that made her cry and I have kept my word. I have no doubts, no regrets. I see clearly where dharma lay in this war and where adharma.

Originally posted by: ...Diala...

Hello Sabhayata.. 😛

4. He dint continue to play for this reason.. He agreed to play Duryodhan so that he can 'win' (i dont wanna use rob 😳).. but he, in his words, was cheated by Shakuni's proxy.. so he knew he was a better player than Dury but not Shakuni..

5) What is that? 😲 What message did he send to Indra?

I did think Yudi is a boring saint.. later on reading KMG translation am glad he is not one.. he is surely an interesting character.. being a little more harsh on him would make me think he was really selfish and shrewd.. who is ready to do anything to get his work done.. and doesnt care about others at all.. I would give Krishna and Yudi equal marks for strategically/cunningly winning the war...

i agree shakuni cheated but my point is what was stopping him from leaving the game in between when he clearly knew he was being cheated?

what many people believe and serials show is that it was some kind of kshatraiya dharma because of which he couldn't leave that he was in some way forced to continue?

which isn't true atleast the epic doesn't say so so my point was that he couldn't leave despite knowing shakuni is cheating him because even he wanted to win and not because of any kshatriya dharma

Regarding the 5th point i guess i got confused with RM's version.As per what KMG says Yudhishtir is worried about karna and his prowess which Indra dev somehow comes to know and hence goes to ask for KK daan..RM makes a direct connection between the two saying that Yudhishtir sent some kind of message to indradev

bold that is harsh-😆 i would just say that even yudhishtir had certain controversial qualities which makes him interesting and not boring like how serials portray him

like i have always said in pandavs victory if any one came up with strategies for their victory after krishna ji it was yudhishtir

Originally posted by: AnuMP

@ashne

This is Krishna to Yudhishtir after the war per RM. So, he does give them a piece of his mind, only he saved it for the end😆

Listen to me now and hear me well. Years ago in the Kamyaka vana, I wiped the tears from Draupadi's eyes and I swore to her I would bring death to those that had tormented her.

Yudhishtira, you did not seem to mind that your wife had been humiliated in the sabha of Hastinapura. You only spoke of the dharma or the adharma of what happened. You allowed these beasts to drag her into that court, to revile her, to try to strip her naked. And you would not let Bheema kill them, as they deserved, because you said it was not dharma. It seems that to you there were other things more important than Panchali's tears.

But to me, Yudhishtira, there was nothing in the world more momentous than her tears. I swore I would kill those that had made her cry. Bheeshma and Drona never raised a hand, never spoke a word to help her; for that, they have died.

I believe in only one thing: the tears of the oppressed must be wiped and justice given to them. Draupadi could hardly help herself against the men who abused her and not even her husbands were sure that they would redress what she had endured. But not I. I said I would kill the devils that made her cry and I have kept my word. I have no doubts, no regrets. I see clearly where dharma lay in this war and where adharma.

i anu long time no see

does this conversation happen after duryodhan dies when all gods and balram are blaming panadavs and pandavas also feel bad?i am forgetting

if yeas then it has been tweaked from what is said in KMG or CE

I thought not to respond here but could not resist after seeing a point. There is a new question: What makes Yudhishthir the great king he was supposed to be?
Please read his beautiful conversation with Sanjay from Udyoga Parva to learn his love for the prajas. A king who had so much love & care for his prajas is lovable in any country at any time, I think.
& the logic of his respect to Brahmins is really misunderstood. There is a tradition in most of the modern readers to overlook the portions which contain philosophy & Spirituality like Yaksha questions, Nahush's questions etc. If you read the chapter of Nahush's meeting with Yudhi from Van Parva then only you will understand what was the real meaning of 'Brahmin' for Yudhi. It was not based on varna system only, he himself did say to Nahush that some virtues must be there in a true Brahmin. Kindly check the list of those virtues. Yudhi said that those virtues can convert a shudra into Brahmin, & lack of them converts a Brahmin into a shudra. Hope you have understood what was definition of a brahmin for him. So according to him, Brahmin did never mean a special varna, it meant a class of real good & virtuous peeple. He had utter respect for those virtuous people only, what is wrong with this? How many Dwapar Yug people could utter so confidentially that he did not treat any Brahmin as Brahmin based on birth only? He believed in Karma, not on Janma based Brahmanism. We generally overlook that beautiful thinking which only matches with liberal thoughts of modern era but do highlight on his Brahmin bhakti with a modern mind. He himself was a Brahmin according the virtues he mentioned as symptoms of a Brahmin.
Sorry if I hurt anybody, this is just my POV.

Originally posted by: Urmila11

I thought not to respond here but could not resist after seeing a point. There is a new question: What makes Yudhishthir the great king he was supposed to be?
Please read his beautiful conversation with Sanjay from Udyoga Parva to learn his love for the prajas. A king who had so much love & care for his prajas is lovable in any country at any time, I think.
& the logic of his respect to Brahmins is really misunderstood. There is a tradition in most of the modern readers to overlook the portions which contain philosophy & Spirituality like Yaksha questions, Nahush's questions etc. If you read the chapter of Nahush's meeting with Yudhi from Van Parva then only you will understand what was the real meaning of 'Brahmin' for Yudhi. It was not based on varna system only, he himself did say to Nahush that some virtues must be there in a true Brahmin. Kindly check the list of those virtues. Yudhi said that those virtues can convert a shudra into Brahmin, & lack of them converts a Brahmin into a shudra. Hope you have understood what was definition of a brahmin for him. So according to him, Brahmin did never mean a special varna, it meant a class of real good & virtuous peeple. He had utter respect for those virtuous people only, what is wrong with this? How many Dwapar Yug people could utter so confidentially that he did not treat any Brahmin as Brahmin based on birth only? He believed in Karma, not on Janma based Brahmanism. We generally overlook that beautiful thinking which only matches with liberal thoughts of modern era but do highlight on his Brahmin bhakti with a modern mind. He himself was a Brahmin according the virtues he mentioned as symptoms of a Brahmin.
Sorry if I hurt anybody, this is just my POV.