'Mahabharat- Different Versions -Perspectives' - Page 23

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Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: mnx12

Vrish, I have read this story. It was in a article posted in a NP. Don't know the source.

Bheem taunted Yudi for delaying his meeting Brahmins, as Yudi seemed over confident. If the Brahmins has some urgent work, that can be attended that day itself, then meeting them the next day would not have served any purpose. That was the reason Bheem wanted Yudi to understand, being king, he has to solve people's problems at the right time.



Some one knows the origin? whose brainchild was this story?
varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

KMG wasnt based on Nilkantha's commentary version, As far as i know, KMG translated from the version translated by Max muller.




From "Translator's Preface"...by KMG

In this second interview estimates were drawn up, and everything was arranged as far as my portion of the work was concerned. My friend left with me a specimen of translation which he had received from Professor Max Muller. This I began to study, carefully comparing it sentence by sentence with the original.

About the readings I have adopted, I should say that as regards the first half of the work, I have generally adhered to the Bengal texts; as regards the latter half, to the printed Bombay edition. Sometimes individual sections, as occurring in the Bengal editions, differ widely, in respect of the order of the verses, from the corresponding ones in the Bombay edition. In such cases I have adhered to the Bengal texts, convinced that the sequence of ideas has been better preserved in the Bengal editions than the Bombay one.

The Bombay edition referred to above is the version for which Nilkantha wrote his commentary.
Edited by varaali - 11 years ago
DrModel thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
There are different thoughts on whether Ulupi was married to Arjun.
Excerpts from Jaya:
Arjuna was dragged under the river and found himself in the arms of a Naga woman called Ulupi. Make me yours, she asked him and he refused. It is against dharma to refuse a woman who comes to you willingly she said quoting the scriptures. Arjun spent a night with her and then went on his way FORGETTING the strange encounter.

From his union with her, a young warrior called Iravan was born who would play a crucial role in the great war.

Source: Jaya, an illustrated retelling of the Mahabharat by Dr Devdutt Pattnaik.

Another version:

Once while bathing before his prayers, Arjun found himself dragged to the bottom of the river and found himself in a luxurious underwater palace and a ravishing maiden standing before him. "why did you bring me here pretty one" he asked her. She offers him her love and Arjun refuses. Ulupi says that his vow of celibacy only applies to Draupadi and it is his duty as a kshatriya to marry me. And so they were married and Arjun stayed with her for the night. The next day Ulupi led him back to the surface as it was clear to her that he had married her out of goodwill and not love and showed no signs of staying back with her. She blessed the handsome warrior before he left saying all sea creatures would obey him and not harm him. "Farewell, my beloved" she said as she bid him goodbye.

As soon as she left, Arjun felt as though he was rising from a dream which was turning hazy and fading from memory.

From Arjuna - the saga of a pandav warrior prince.
++++++++++
As for Chitrangda, she fell in love with Arjun before he did. Fearing that the handsome warrior would not want her she prayed to the Three Eyed Lord and asked that she become more beautiful. Her wish was granted but when Arjun saw her he paid no attention as he had seen such beauty before. He wanted the warrior woman Chitrangda and so she prayed to Lord Shiva again and the benevolent Lord transformed her back to her original form.

Taken from jaya - An illustrated retelling of the MB by Dr DP

It is also said that Arjun stayed with Chitrangda for three years and then he handed his son over to the Manipur king before departing.

Arjun would also one day in Indra's abode meet his son Irvana who with the naga troops would fight at Kurukshetra.

It is said that when Ulupi heard about Chitrangda, she went to Maniour so that she could eb closer to Arjuna, for she could not follow him to IP. Chitrangda welcomed her warmly and her son became Ulupi's favorite. Ulupi moulded Bbaru in Arjun's image. Chita and her son follwoed the tales of Arjun and Babru went with his army to fight at Kuru

There is also a story that years later after the war, when Arjun takes a horse for Ashwemedha to Manipur he and Babru duel and Arjuna dies. Chitra and Bbalu are heartbroken but Ulupi tells them of a tale where Bhishma's brothers curse Arjun and when the Naga king begs them to take their curse back, they say that Arjun wille scape hell if he is killed by his own blood in battle. Ulupi then uses an ancient gemstone to restore Arjun to life.

Source: Arjuna- the saga of a Pandav warrior prince

Edited by DrModel - 11 years ago
TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Neelkanth's Commentary was in Sanskrit right?
bhas1066 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
hi

THE MAN WHO CURSED KRISHNA
There was a sage called Uttanka. He was so pure that only a wafer thin veil of ignorance separated him from merging with God.

Once, he was wandering in the desert plains when he met Krishna, who was on the way back to Dwaraka after the war. Uttanka was sure that someone as influential as Krishna would have definitely prevented a war and established unshakeable brotherhood.

The sage's fervent optimism was shattered when Krishna said that his attempts had failed and most had died in the bloodiest war ever. In his fury, he cursed Krishna. He mourned and wept bitterly for humanity. He called Krishna a hypocrite, who was capable - and yet did nothing.

After all, was bloodshed and Dharma greater than forgiveness and brotherhood?

Krishna earnestly explained how absolutely nothing worked - including piteous pleading for peace, graphic descriptions of post war horrors, and even reducing the Pandava's demands to merely five villages. Why - even revealing his cosmic form and proving his divinity did not change the Kauravas' minds.

Uttanka was still unconvinced. Finally Krishna emotionally overwhelmed him with his cosmic form, and offered him a boon. The pure and shaken sage, who first politely refused, finally asked for water whenever he needed it.

Later on, Uttanka was afflicted by thirst, and he remembered the Lord's boon. Immediately a "chandala", the lowest human form, foul smelling and filth covered, appeared before him and lovingly offered him water. The old Brahmin knew very well Krishna was behind this. However, though parched, he only felt repulsion, and could not bring himself to take the water from this man. He felt anger at Krishna for his trickery and betrayal.

As these feelings of offense coursed through Uttanka's heart, the chandala disappeared and Krishna stood smiling. What he told Uttanka, is a message to each and every one of us.

In his infinite love, Krishna said he wanted to give Uttanka more than he had asked for. The Chandala was none other than Indra, and the liquid nothing less than nectar. However, Uttanka could not see the loving gesture behind the ugly flesh. He could not reach beyond the difference in form and behold the identical nature of the perfect soul. Even when God offered the nectar of bliss, he could not see Him in the offering because of his own prejudices.

And he wept over "brotherhood" and "dharma"? Krishna asked him, if an evolved sage like Uttanka could not see the chandala as an equal soul, how could he expect God to force universal brotherhood onto the lesser wise souls?

Uttanka had refused God's invitation to joy and universal brotherhood. He had wasted a rare opportunity that comes only with the grace of God. Exactly as the Kauravas had done.

God is helpless if His willingness to bless is not met with the readiness to receive.

This is what we do even today. Every moment, God speaks through our conscience and inner voice. Whether we listen, or ignore, is not God's choice, but ours.
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Posted: 11 years ago

Editions of Mahabharata and Size

Mahabharata mentions that there were 4 main editions, the complete one with 60 lakh slokas, the thirty lakh slokas one that dealt with Swarga is called Narada edition, 15 lakhs sloka edition (by Asita Devala) that dealt with realm of Pitris, 14 lakh sloka edition for Gandharvas, Yakshas and Rakshasas and One lakh complete slokas for humans as detailed by Vaishampayan. It clearly states the 8800 initial summary created for Suka and 24000 smaller version which can be told if you don't have the time. There is no 8800 initial version and 24000 later version, 8800 is called a summary and 24000 is Bharata or Samkshipta Mahabharata.

It is clearly stated that the one lakh sloka version is called Jaya Itihaas or Adi Mahabharata. It is clearly written by Vyas. Before we start the work of Vyas, there is Astika Parva or Astika Purana written by Romaharshana and added at start of 100,000 sloka Vyas creation. Before that there is Pushya Parva added by Ugrashrva and now modern texts add Parva Sanghraha Parva and Anukarmika ahead on that.

Later commentators mention that Mahabharata is in editing from 4th cen BC to 4th cen ad. Some relevant topics du jour are added and some removed. The society is changing and Mahabharata's surrounding foliage of stories is being trimmed and re-sown. 89 AD, the inscription by King Sarvanath states that Vyas created Mahabharata has one lakh plus slokas.

Then we have Lakshalankar. This commentary is celebrated in ancient texts and referenced though little of this huge work is now extant but the references from even early times indicate that it was twice the size of current northern editions and was regarded as highly unadulterated by editors, Shuddh! Actually Neelkantha has supposed to have seen this text and added Nalayniya section of his Mahabharata from Lakshalankar.

We have verse and chapter count from a 4th century AD recession. That tallies to great extent to the verse count recorded by Akbar's court when translating to Persian. The number of verses are 83000 or so and has an appendix of 12000 verses called Khilavansha. The Persian edition count is 83K or so plus 16000 verses Harivamsha and Vishnu Parva.

In 17th century, Neelkantha wrote a great commentary and compiled a very clean and efficient edition from texts whose antecedents and chain of custody he could trace back to 11th century AD. He also mentions of changes wrought by non-Hindu editors but does not remove them and comments on them. Neelkanth apologises that he does not better works to work with and lot of characters in the epic cannot have justice done to them.

Most northern editions have 83K to 86K verses while most southern versions have 100K plus verses and then Harivansha is added on top of that. Many of the extra stories in Southern editions have also long antecedents and antiquity or may even retain greater right to be part of Mahabharata. The modern texts include 1931 (1962 revised) Critical edition or Pune edition (which became more and more Krishna worship as time progressed, most of initial scholars were Germans who were all arrested during World War 1 as enemy citizens! so all the Pali research does not make its way into the critical edition), there is 1834 Telugu edition called Madras edition, 1878 Neelakantha edition, PC Roy edition 1882, there is Dakshinatya Kumbhakonam edition 1905 ( 1st published 1834,), there is Geeta Press edition from 1920s which you all can download.

The Gorakhpur or Geeta Press edition has 86600 verses from northern texts (that is almost 3000 more than any other northern text other than mountain ones), they included 6584 slokas from Southern texts (from around 30000 or so plus available) and they further added 7033 verses from ("Uvach") folk editions or stories which were deemed ancient enough or were considered by editors should be part of the Mahabharata though they added comments with them to identify them. The Draupadi refusing Karna as Suta King is one such sloka which Geeta Press edition states in comments as not available elsewhere but added from local stories. 1920s was the start of great Harijana movement and though Mahabharata is about High caste Kshatriyas and Sutas, the local climate would have affected the editors when selecting these Uvach slokas. ("So Said".)

Alterations and What is changed

The critical edition is 21 chapters shorter in Adiparva and the count in the Mahabharata itself indicates that Adiparva is 1000 slokas shorter. Ashwamedhik Parva is 30 chapters shorter.

Sabha Parva current count is 2511 but it is 2000 slokas shorter than what is indicated in several Parva sangrahas. Current Geeta Press edition does not cover those 2000 odd slokas though atleast one printed edition from 1895 and 4 palm leaf manuscripts are available with full text. Geeta Press edition we have now adds 1200 plus slokas from Dakshinatya edition and total in Geeta press edition for Sabha Parva is almost 4000 slokas, still around 500 shorter than Dakshinatya version.

Virata also loses half of its size, Udyoga also loses 1500 slokas and Bhishma loses 2000 slokas as do Drona, Karna gains 700 slokas, Ashwamedhika loses 1000 slokas and Anushasana loses 4000 slokas. Ashramavasika loses 400 while Mausala and Mahaprsthanika and swargarohana with just 100 slokas each somehow gain lot of slokas.

This indicates that over time, lot of Sabha Parva and Virata was removed whose stories are still available in Southern editions. War Parvas also lose lot of characters and their introduction, just their deaths are mentioned. Anushasana was an invention of Non-Hindu and later casteist editors and its losses of 4000 slokas may not be taking anything away from the story. And the adulterant later-parvas are obviously late additions to storyline, Sauptika is a big example, a dream sequence play by Bhasa became a Parva. It was probably added by Saivite editors to give some role to Saivite characters and then adulterated by Vaishanva editors to downgrade those very characters. The later description in the epic and also folk stories contradicts the role of these characters in Sauptika Parva.

Ugrasrava description of Parvas and Sub-Parvas

What is interesting is Ugrasrava summarizing the Parva sequence in start of Epic. This Parva sequence is different from the current Mahabharata list of 18 Parvas.

Current Mahabharata list is Adiparva, Sabha, Vana, Virata, Udyoga, Bheeshma, Drona, Karna, Salya, Sauptika, Stree, Shanti, Anushasan, Ashwamedhika, Ashramavasika, Musala, Mahaprasthanika and Swragarohana.

Ugrsrava lists the following:

Paulomaparva (his work) and Astika Purana/Parva (his father Romaharshana's work) then SambhavaParva (Adi Parva) then SabhaParva and AranyaParva (Vana and Aranya are same meaning) then he mentions a complete, different and very important Parva, Araniparva, the great mine of religion and virtue. These are the teachings of Yudhishthara on a casteless society (to the Yaksha and Gandharva) where Karma rather than Dharma or janama is paramount. Arani Parva in a small mutilated sections is left as part of Vana Parva. The meritocratic casteless Karma-pradhana society and its teachings were not what the Kaliyuga ordered! I am sure that the Yaksha-Gandharva edition of Mahabharata would have this Parva intact.

Ugrasrva's list continues with Virata then Udyoga then Bhishma then Drona then Karna then Salya then Stri parva.

Sauptika parva is completely missing in Sootji's original description. Then we have Aishika Parva (Reeds), this is missing altogether and may be a pointer to giving water to the fallen warriors (standing in the reeds Aishika) but that is my speculation. The Sootji continues with Santiparva then Aswamedhaparva then Asramavasikaparva then Mausala Parva and that is the end of story. (The entire Anushasana, Mahaparsthanika and Swargarohana are missing from this original list in the Epic.).

Initial list in Mahabharata is also 18 Parvas and current Mahabharata also has 18 Parvas. Sauptika, Mahaprasthanika, Anushasana and Swargarohana are the interlopers. We have Arani, Aishika as the missing Parvas. The difference is almost 16000 slokas, discounting interlopers we may be missing 26000 slokas.

What is missing on Sub-Parva level

Adi Parva:

On closer examination of what Sootji states and what is missing on sub-parva basis is Subhadra wedding descriptions, sections which describes Yudhishthara's administration in detail, Maya-Darshan is smaller in size.

In Sabha Parva, Mantrana Parva or Administration Advice is again missing but replaced by Lokpala Sabhakhyan and Rajasuyaarambhaka Parvas, Jarasandha Parva is edited down and so are missing large sections of Digvijay parva.

In Vana Parva, losses seem to be with Jatasura and Yaksha war sections, Ajagar section (though probably this sectin reappears in Udyoga Parva), Mriga-Swapna (dream of the deer which is left to less than 20 slokas) and working with nature section is edited down as are stories of Brihadaranyaka and then Aindradrumna. Savitri story is inflated in (it is at two places)and Ramayana is reduced. Kritya story is also very different and more extended in folk editions.

Ugrasrava summarizes some of the sections in Vana parva:

Bhimasena's journey to Gandhamadana at the request of Draupadi (in search of the sweet-scented blue flower).

Bhima's meeting with Hanumana;

Bhima's bath in the tank and the destruction of the mighty Rakshasas and the Yakshas of great prowess including Maniman then

Jatasura story then

Pandavas meet Vrishparvan,

then they go to Arishtasena's asylum,

then Bhima is incited to acts of vengeance, then is narrated the ascent on the hills of Kailasa by Bhimasena, his terrific battle with the mighty Rakshasas;

then the meeting of the Pandavas with Vaisravana (Kuvera).

So, here there are two different Rakshasa wars in Gandhamadana and Kailasa; both featuring Bhima and the Pandavas with Vrishparvan and Vaisarvana after each of these battles. Only one war is described in the Vana Parva we have now.

In Virata, Abhimanyu marriage section is reduced. More than half of Parva is missing. The action actually opens on 290th day of exile and then fast forwards to about 352th day and then 383rd day.

In Udyoga Parva

'Prajagara' (the sleeplessness of Dhritarashtra owing to his anxiety) is reduced in size.

Then Sanatsujata, in which are the mysteries of spiritual philosophy. This seems to be added in, Saunaka is in audience and descended from these Rishis. Sanata and Sujata philosophies are also not part of Sanatana dharma but represent a different Samprayadic path which indicates a religious sect lost in time and memory like Manicheanism.

Then there is arrival of Krishna in Hastinapur. Then the story of 'Matali' and then of 'Galava'. Then the stories of 'Savitri', 'Vamadeva', and 'Vainya'. Then the story of 'Jamadagnya and Shodasarajika.

Then the arrival of Krishna. (again!!) So it seems so that stories of Matali, Galava, Savitri again, Vamadeva, Vainya (who might be a king in 5th cen India) are inserted from outside and not part of the main Mahabharata.

Kunti's teachings are listed next

Then the muster of troops is described and the story of Shveta, son of Virata. This section is completely missing. We meet Sveta just before he dies. In Folk and other editions, he has bigger role.

Another section I am not commenting on due to certain local tendencies. See, how even a modern commentator is forced by local situation in editing his data.

Enumeration of Rathis is reduced.

War Parvas:

Bheeshma is missing Dwipaupakhyan which is there in Jaina versions. Then in Drona Sanshaptaka destruction is very much reduced. The death of Drona section is listed by Ugrasrava as surprising and avishwasniya. Death of Brahmin is obviously edited by later editors.

Salya and Stree

Salya is missing Saraswata Parva and genealogies lists and lists of surviving warriors. This section would be contradictory to Sauptika when someone later added in Sauptika so this section is taken out. Stree is edited and Shradha parva missing, the shradha rites change over time but list of names in this parva would again give lie to Sauptika.

In a moment of mistake by editor who added in Sauptika, Dhritrashtra asked how many survived, the answer given by Yudhishthara is Twenty four thousand, one hundred and sixty five. In Salya Parva at Sakuni's fall, Sanjaya enumerates Pandava strength at 1700 elephants, 3000 Rathis, 5000 horses and 10000 foot. Counting mahouts and charioteers, 3400 plus 6000 plus 5000 plus 10000 makes it 24400 almost same as 24165 given by Yudhisthara indicating Sauptika was a dream sequence.

In popular imagination, they state that Seven Pandavas (5 plus Krishna and Satyaki) and 3 Kaurava warriors survived. This is itself contradicted in Epic where Yuyutsu, Sanjay and Indrasena, Visoka, with 14 Rathis by name and army escort ladies to the field and back.

Bloated Santiparva is missing Grahapravibhaga, another administration section, edited out. Maya Danava should make reappearance now as per Ugrasrava but is missing. Anushasana is definitely an interpolation. Everything after chapter 35 may be added much later than original Epic. Even those 35 are probably stolen from Vana, Santi and other places inside the epic itself.

As an aside, Indonesian Mahabharata has two versions:

There is 8 Parva (Non-War) version (basically Adi, Sabha, Vana, Virata, Santi, HAstinapur, Ashwamedha and End) and a separate War Parva (Udyoga, Sveta, Bheeshma, Drona, Karna, Salya et all)

Like Vyas's 100 sub-parva organization, there is also the 149 Parva grouping with 94 sub-Parvas dedicated to Pandava rule at Indraprastha and their extended family (literally a huge Indraprastha Parva or Amartya Parva, 32 sub-Parvas deal with rest of Mahabharata proper including war and 23 sub-parvas are mostly Javanese/local and also some Indian legends which are not in our Epic. Another organizational structure is story level variant and more than 600 stories are listed in sequence covering the whole of Epic except War.

Then there is Wayang performance version where each chapter is one performance using puppets. From death of Pandu to Drauapdi marriage are 93 nights or performances not including Ghatotkacha birth stories which are separate set of plays.

A corollary to this research is:

Yudhishthara s era started when he was crowned at Indraprastha. A throwaway sloka states that Kali Yuga should have started 25 years before. Vyas states on Pandu's death that Kaliyuga is about to start. Hanuman states that Kaliyuga has started in Vana parva. There are several more references and a counter, Dharma is still alive so no Kaliyuga. If Krishna is there, this Kaliyuga is like Kritayuga. Mahabharata occurred 75 years after Kali should have started but has been stopped by Krishna and Dharma. They kept Kali at bay for 60 more years. That is Sandhya between Dwapara and Kali yuga.

Virata Battle: Arjuna revealed himself to the Kauravas. Immediately Duryodhana, asked Bheeshma, if he had not come out earlier than the stipulated time, to which he replied that the Pandavas were in exile for 13 lunar years, five lunar months and 12 days ( = 4766.42 days) [13 sidereal years =4748.34 days, and so the Pandavas were in exile for18 days more than the stipulated period]. (I have heard another version which had 6 days less, either way, Pandavas escaped detection by plenty to spare.)

Edited by bhas1066 - 11 years ago
bheegi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Has anyone read Ramesh Menon's two volume version of Mahabharat?

Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: mnx12

Vrish, I have read this story. It was in a article posted in a NP. Don't know the source.

Bheem taunted Yudi for delaying his meeting Brahmins, as Yudi seemed over confident. If the Brahmins has some urgent work, that can be attended that day itself, then meeting them the next day would not have served any purpose. That was the reason Bheem wanted Yudi to understand, being king, he has to solve people's problems at the right time.



Minakshi

Thanks for explaining the real reason behind Bhima doing that. Otherwise, the way I heard it, his reasoning didn't make a lot of sense. If he was looking @ it from the POV of the subjects, then what he did was really commendable.

He was the yuvraj, so looks like he played a role similar to the one Bharat did in Ramayan (as Rama's yuvraj)
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Posted: 11 years ago

I have got the first volume. Its more or less KMG+Rajagopalachari+BRC copy with little ingenuity of the writer, other than some spiced up sex scenes here and there.😳
Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
A Mahabharata Retelling
Sci-Fi

There are 27 chapters and progressing as of now.
No need to throw money to buy anything - Free to Read.
Its beautifully written.



Nakul and Sahdev are awesome. Everybody fears there destructive experimenting evil tendencies.

Duri and Yudhi were close when they were younger.Duryodhna meddling with black magic.Possessions of the Kauravas.

Arjuna-Ashwi epic bromance.


Vasta Haran is written amazingly.



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