Drona - A True Guru or an Ambitious Person??

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#51

Originally posted by: poseidon2
why blame only dronacharya for not stopping draupadi cheerharan ? bheeshma , vidur , kripacharya are all to be blamed. infact they are bigger culprits. drona was an outsider while bheeshma and vidur were the seniors of the house. protecting the kulvadhu of the house was their responsibility instead of an outsider. even kripacharya is at bigger fault as he was the kulguru and and protecting the kulvadhu was his duty.

WHy are we forgetting the biggest culprit of all- Yudhishthira?

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shripadk

@shripadk

Explorer

Posted: 11 years ago

#52

Originally posted by: varaali

WHy are we forgetting the biggest culprit of all- Yudhishthira?

Yudhishtira cannot be blamed entirely. There was a rule during those days that when a Kshatriya is challenged he had to accept it... be it to War or to gambling. In fact when Yudhishtira becomes a King the first thing he bans is gambling and removes this rule from the rulebook of Kshatriyas.

But he definitely made a big mistake by betting on Draupadi after he had lost himself (and thereby lost all rights on Draupadi).

Also, the Game of Dice was a symbolism of Adharma taking precedence over Dharma. This was bound to happen. In the previous birth of Duryodhana (Demon Kali) and Shakuni (Demon Dwapara)... they had trapped Nala and Damayanti in the same way. Dwapara was Kali's dice.

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#53

Originally posted by: shripadk

Yudhishtira cannot be blamed entirely. There was a rule during those days that when a Kshatriya is challenged he had to accept it... be it to War or to gambling. In fact when Yudhishtira becomes a King the first thing he bans is gambling and removes this rule from the rulebook of Kshatriyas.

But he definitely made a big mistake by betting on Draupadi after he had lost himself (and thereby lost all rights on Draupadi).

Also, the Game of Dice was a symbolism of Adharma taking precedence over Dharma. This was bound to happen. In the previous birth of Duryodhana (Demon Kali) and Shakuni (Demon Dwapara)... they had trapped Nala and Damayanti in the same way. Dwapara was Kali's dice.

That's why I am calling him the biggest culprit in the vastra- haran incident.

I am not saying he should not have accepted the challenge. But staking his wife...horrible.

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413226

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#54

Originally posted by: poseidon2

here draupadi was also at mistake equally. after arjun when pandu wanted another son , kunti flatly refused and somehow twisted pandu into letting madri have a child that time. kunti knew that having kids from 5 different men will give her the tag of a prostitute from which she clearly saved herself.

nobody kept a gun on draupadi's head to become the common wife. whatever happened was fully due to her consent. like kunti saved herself from getting the tag of a prostitute , even draupadi should had saved herself but she didnt.

This is a classic case of the victim being blamed for her own sufferings. Draupadi cannot be blamed for marrying the pandava brothers when Kunti or the pandavas themselves wished it to be so. She had been won in the contest and not exactly had the luxury of choosing her husband. Whatever may have ben the circumstances of her marrying 5 brothers it still did not give any of those husbands to gamble her away or anyone to humiliate her publicly by disrobing her.

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413226

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#55

Originally posted by: JanakiRaghunath

Yeah, I know, but that doesn't mean we have to like it right? 😉 I mean, there were many things that were the established practice in those days, but they still were not ethically right even by their standards.

People probably have mixed opinions about Ekalavya shooting arrows into the dog's mouth, but personally I don't like it. It just gives me the shivers to think how the poor dog felt. 🤢

If we apply the premise that we condone practices that were prevalent in those times without our present morals and sensibilities we would have to apply them for all the practices. We cannot apply them to one set like sensitivity to animal suffering and then ignore them for gender or caste sensitivity during the two eras.

If we take our present ethics then, teachers choosing favourite pupils and pupils on the basis of caste as determined by birth and not the students capability has a lot to be deplored.

About the dog incident I agree with one member's post that mentioned that the arrows had been very skilfully shot by Ekalavya so as only to stop the barking without hurting the dog. The tribl societies had more reverence for nature and animals than the Kshatriyas.

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shripadk

@shripadk

Explorer

Posted: 11 years ago

#56

Originally posted by: peridot.

If we apply the premise that we condone practices that were prevalent in those times without our present morals and sensibilities we would have to apply them for all the practices. We cannot apply them to one set like sensitivity to animal suffering and then ignore them for gender or caste sensitivity during the two eras.

If we take our present ethics then, teachers choosing favourite pupils and pupils on the basis of caste as determined by birth and not the students capability has a lot to be deplored.

About the dog incident I agree with one member's post that mentioned that the arrows had been very skilfully shot by Ekalavya so as only to stop the barking without hurting the dog. The tribl societies had more reverence for nature and animals than the Kshatriyas.

Stop the barking without hurting the dog? How do you know? Is it there in some scriptures or is it based on hearsay? I can also say that Drona asked for Ekalavya's thumb as Guru Dakshina... not because he wanted to hurt Ekalavya. I'm sure if you agree to Ekalavya not hurting the dog by shooting arrows, then logically Drona did not hurt Ekalavya by asking his thumb as Guru Dakshnia (as asking for Guru Dakshina is a pious act).

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#57

Originally posted by: poseidon2
here draupadi was also at mistake equally. after arjun when pandu wanted another son , kunti flatly refused and somehow twisted pandu into letting madri have a child that time. kunti knew that having kids from 5 different men will give her the tag of a prostitute from which she clearly saved herself.
nobody kept a gun on draupadi's head to become the common wife. whatever happened was fully due to her consent. like kunti saved herself from getting the tag of a prostitute , even draupadi should had saved herself but she didnt.

@blue: Kunti never 'twisted' Pandu or Madari. Yes, she did desist from having any more children for the reason you have mentioned, but it was Madari who requested Pandu to ask Kunti to divulge the manta to he, so that she too may become a mother. If there was any arm twisting, it was done by Madari.

@red No, there was no gun on Draupadi's head...only an arrow. 😆 But the point is, she never had much of a choice in the first place. She was the wife of someone who had won the swayamvar fair and square and-as per the laws on those times- had to abide by his wishes. If Arjuna didn't have any objections to all his brothers marrying Draupadi, there was precious little she could do.

@ green: Kunti's was a case of Niyoga. Draupadi went through the marriage rites with each of the Pandavas. She became the duly wedded wife of each one. There's no question of 'saving' herself.

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#58

Originally posted by: poseidon2
nowhere i said that she deserved to be gambled away or disrobed just because she had 5 husbands. my point was only that she should had been more vigilant and careful of her own izzat just like kunti. kunti saved herself from the tag of a prostitute but draupadi didnt save herself.

dont tell me that she didnt have any option because that would mean that the 5 pandavas forced themselves upon her. that was not the case right ? so she was equally willing to become the common wife. i am not blaming her alone. all 5 pandavas have also to be blamed and biggest blame should go on kunti. maybe the pandavas were attracted by draupadi and even she was equally attracted towards all 5. it was kunti's duty to stop that mess since she had very well saved herself by not having a child after arjun but she let her bahu get that tag easily. even krishna should be blamed because how he let his mooh boli behen to become the common wife of his 5 cousins.

As I said earlier, Kunti's and Draupadi's cases were different. In Draupdi's case, she had the sanctity of marriage to protect her "izzat". Draupadi was definitely not attracted towards all the five. It was Yudhishthira who took his mother's words literally and out of context and forced both Arjuna and Draupdi into this strange wedlock. Arjuna, being the younger brother was habitually used to obeying his eldest brother's commands- and Draupadi, newly wed and all, just had to follow her husband.

That said, Polyandry, though unusual, did have Vedic sanction. Yudhishthira quotes two examples (I am forgetting exactly who was referring to) where several brothers had a common wife.

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varaali

@varaali

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#59

Originally posted by: poseidon2
well dear she was not so helpless as you are pointing it out to be. she was the one who kept the condition that no other co-wife will be allowed to stay with her 5 husbands. thats why pandavas other wives never got a chance to enter the household and had to stay at their maayka. while in the exile , pandavas didnt go to stay with hidimba because draupadi was not ready to adjust with her.
you know na that when arjun married subhadra and brought her with him , that time draupadi was super angry. even krishna had to come and intervene in between and make her accept subhadra. these are facts.
so now tell me if draupadi was so helpless and had to abide by arjun's wishes then she would had accepted subhadra also very silently. the need for krishna to intervene in between wouldnt had arised only.

@bold : It's a misconception. Where is it mentioned that the other wives did not live them?

The other wives of the Pandavas indeed lived with them.The only exceptions were Uloopi and CHitrangada who stayed back in their parental kingdoms.

See below an extract from the MB from the Vana Parva, Sec XXII. When Nakula married Karenamati, she obviously lived in Indraprastha, b'cos when the Pandavas were in exile & Krishna, Dhrishtadyumna and others visited them, at the end, it's mentioned that Dhrishtaketu, taking his sister w/ him, left for Chedi

Krishna, mounted it himself, worshipped by the Pandavas. And consoling Yudhishthira, Krishna set out for Dwaraka on his car resplendent as the sun and unto which were yoked the horses Saivya and Sugriva. And after he of the Dasharha race had departed, Dhristadyumna, the son of Prishata, also set out for his own city, taking with him the sons of Draupadi. And the king of Chedi, Dhrishtaketu also, taking his sister with him set out for his beautiful city of Suktimati, after bidding farewell to the Pandavas. And, O Bharata, the Kaikeyas also, with the permission of Kunti's son possessed of immeasurable energy, having reverentially saluted all the Pandavas, went away.

And even Uloopi and Chitrangada came and lived with Arjuna after the War.

And during their exile, the Pandavas alternated b/w the Dwaita and Kamakhya forests, and ultimately set off on a long pilgrimage - before their year of incognito. No where is it mentioned that Draupadi could not 'adjust' with Hidimba

Edited by varaali - 11 years ago

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413226

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#60

Originally posted by: -Srushti-

I agree completely with your arguments. Very nice topic by TM and thoughtful POV everyone 😊 For a brahman and a guru, Drona comes across as way too ambitious, partial and selfish. A Brahman and a guru was revered for his wisdom which I suppose included a sense of fairness and justice to all. Drona on the other hand was more of a warrior and a politician yet expected all respects due to a Brahmin. His expectation from Drupad looks quite unrealistic for a wise man and learned man that he was.

@ red- yes, I too had read about that but cant recollect where exactly. It was that feat which made arjuna exclaim that this was a work of an expert archer and wondered who it was. since drone had promised Arjuna that he would make him the best archer he too was curious and they followed that dog who lead them to Eklavya. Eklavya bows to Drona on seeing him. Drona asks him who was his guru and when eklavya says that it is he himself , arjuna looks accusingly at drona. Drona then asks Eklavya for his thumb as gurudakshina which he complies without hesitation.

That's as far as remember reading. Sorry, I don't have the links to the source right now. Would appreciate it if anyone could provide those.