{| Doubts and Discussions about Mahabharata |} - Page 65

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...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

  • Bheeshma on day 10 was his fault. After all, Shikhandi was recognized as a legitimate warrior by everyone else. Had Dhrishtadyumna put Shikhandi on his chariot & attacked Drona, they'd both have been killed. The Pandavas made Shikhandi the commander of one of their akshaunis, while the Kauravas had no qualms fighting him - usually, Shikhandi fought Ashwatthama, Kritavarma & other Kaurava warriors. If Bheeshma had his own reservations about fighting him, that was his issue, not the Pandavas'. Similarly, I don't consider the killings of Bhurishrava or Drona unfair.



I dint want to take this to the D&D thread as what I want to understand is about blame on Karna.. Yet not to disturb that thread moving here..

So does this mean that going to the Kaurava tents in the night, meeting Bheeshma in secret, emotional blackmailing by giving away his blessing of victory, and pulling out of his own mouth the way to defeat him is Kshatriya Dharm? Or if Krishna himself leaking it to Pandavas would have been Dharm? So snatching and breaking weapons is Adharm but following a cheap tactic, making some one putting it down by themselves is Dharm? Sorry I don't find it convincing.. And the dharmic Yudhishtar was ok with this.. How mean.. Why didn't he accept his defeat and walk away? After all that was true..

As I said Ive not read it full.. But because Bheeshm was the commander until then, there would have not been any adharm from Kaurava's side is what I stand with right now.. So who employed adharma first was Pandavas.. Abhimanyu vadh as I said was a cost incurred to save Yudhishtar and can also be considered a tit for tat for Bheeshm vadh..
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Well, there were a few instances of Kaurava violations b4 the killing of Bheeshma. One was the rakshasha Alambusha using an image of Garuda killing Nagas to kill Iravana.

Anyway, on Bheeshma's counsel to Yudisthir, here is what it says

Sanjaya continued, "Hearing these words, O king, he of Vrishni's race said unto Yudhishthira, 'O thou of great wisdom, these words of thine, O king, are to my taste. Bhishma, otherwise called Devavrata, is skilled in weapons. With only his glances he can consume the foe. Repair unto that son of the Ocean-going (Ganga), for asking him about the means of his death. Asked by thee, in particular, he will certainly say the truth. We will, therefore, proceed for questioning the Kuru grandsire. Repairing unto the reverend son of Santanu, we will, O Bharata, ask him his advice and according to the advice that he will give us we will fight with the foe.' Having thus deliberated, O elder brother of Pandu, the heroic sons of Pandu, and the valiant Vasudeva, all proceeded together towards the abode of Bhishma, casting aside their coats of mail and weapons and entering then his tent, they all bowed to him, bending their heads. And the sons of Pandu, O king, worshipping that bull of Bharata's race, and bowing unto him with their heads, sought his protection. The Kuru grandsire, the mighty-armed Bhishma, then addressed them, saying, 'Welcome art thou, O thou of Vrishni's race. Welcome art thou, O Dhananjaya. Welcome to thee, O king Yudhishthira the just, Ad to thee, O Bhima. Welcome to you also, ye twins. What am I to do now for enhancing your joy? Even if it be exceedingly difficult of achievement, I will yet do it with all my soul. Unto the son of Ganga who thus repeatedly spoke unto them with such affection, king Yudhishthira, with a cheerful heart, lovingly said, these words, 'O thou that art conversant with everything, how shall we obtain victory, and how shall we acquire sovereignty? How also may this destruction of creatures be stopped? Say all these unto me, O lord. Tell us the means of thy own death. How, O hero, shall we be able to bear thee in battle? O grandsire of the Kurus, thou givest not thy foes even a minute hole to pick in thee. Thou art seen in battle with thy bow ever drawn to a circle. When thou takest thy shafts, when aimest them, and when drawest the bow (for letting them off), no one is able to mark. O slayer of hostile heroes, constantly smiting (as thou dost) cars and steeds and men and elephants, we behold thee on thy car, O mighty-armed one, to resemble a second Sun. What man is there, O bull of Bharata's race, who can venture to vanquish thee, scattering showers of arrows in battle, and causing a great destruction. Tell me, O grandsire, the means by which we may vanquish thee in battle, by which sovereignty may be ours, and lastly, by which my army may not have to undergo such destruction. Hearing these words, Santanu's son, O elder brother of Pandu, said unto the son of Pandu, 'As long as I am alive, O son of Kunti, victory cannot be yours in battle, O thou of great wisdom. Truly do I say this unto thee. After, however, I am vanquished in fight, ye may have victory in battle, ye sons of Pandu. If, therefore, ye desire victory in the battle, smite me down without delay. I give you permission, ye sons of Pritha, strike me as ye please. I am thus known to you in what I regard to be a fortunate circumstance. 1 After I am slain, all the rest will be slain. Therefore, do as I bid'.

"Yudhishthira said, 'Tell us the means by which we may vanquish thee in battle, thee that art, when excited with wrath in the fight, like unto the Destroyer himself armed with mace. The wielder of the thunder-bolt may be vanquished or Varuna, or Yama. Thou, however, art incapable of being defeated in battle by even the gods and Asuras united together, with Indra at their head.'

"Bhishma said, 'That, O son of Pandu, is true, which thou sayest. O thou, of mighty arms. When with weapons and my large bow in hand I contend carefully in battle, I am incapable of being defeated by the very gods and the Asuras with Indra at their head. If, however, I lay aside my weapons, even these car-warriors can slay me. One that hath thrown away his weapons, one that hath fallen down, one whose armour hath slipped off, one whose standard is down, one who is flying away, one who is frightened, one who says--I am thine--one who is a female, one who beareth the name of a female, one no longer capable of taking care of one's self, one who hath only a single son, or one who is a vulgar fellows,--with these I do not like to battle. Hear also, O king, about my resolve formed before. Beholding any inauspicious omen I would never fight. That mighty car-warrior, the son of Drupada, O king, whom thou hast in thy army, who is known by the name of Sikhandin, who is wrathful in battle, brave, and ever victorious, was a female before but subsequently obtained manhood. How all this took place, ye all know it truly. Brave in battle and clad in mail, let Arjuna, keeping Sikhandin before him, attack me with his sharp shafts. When that inauspicious omen will be there, especially in the form of one that was a female before, I will never seek, though armed with bow and arrow, to strike him. Obtaining that opportunity, let Dhananjaya the son of Pandu quickly pierce me on every side with his shafts, O bull of Bharata's race. Except the highly blessed Krishna, and Dhananjaya the son of Pandu, I do not behold the person in the three worlds who is able to slay me while exerting myself in battle. Let Vibhatsu, therefore, armed with weapons, struggling carefully in battle, with his excellent bow in hand, placing (Sikhandin or) something else before, throw, me down (from my car). Then the victory will be certain. Do this, O great king, even this that I have said unto thee, O thou of excellent vows. Thou wilt then be able to slay all Dhartarashtras assembled together in battle.'


So Bheeshma tells Yudisthir to do something that would cause him to not respond. How is it the fault of the Pandavas? Would Drona have laid down his weapons if Arjun approached him w/ Shikhandi in his chariot? How about Karna? Or Ashwatthama or Kripa or Kritavarma?

On Abhimanyu's killing, in addition to Drona, who suggested attacking Abhimanyu from behind & disarming him, as well as Shrutakarna, who actually killed him while he was unconscious, one more blame goes to the Shamshaptakas, who lured Arjun away so that the chakravyuha could advance against Yudisthira.
...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
I agree it was Bheeshm's Dharm and weakness to not fight a woman or an ex-woman.. But that doesnt in any way imply that it can be used to defeat him.. Its anyway cowardice and Adharm.. snatch it away or make him put it down.. either ways it of course means that he was disarmed by the Pandavas because he was a threat.. If this is not wrong then disarming the threat named Abhimanyu was not wrong as well.. If both are wrong then Abhimanyu vadh should be considered revenge.. Both their weaknesses were used/misused by the other party..
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

^^^You really need to take this up w/ either Rishi Vyasa, or Kunti herself ๐Ÿ˜†
It was probably after Madri's death that Sahadev became her favorite.



I wish I could.. ๐Ÿคฃ.. Yeah I know she dint want Madri to outnumber.. But is a raja-tantri as we know.. would love to know why she dint think about this.. utmost rivalry may be dint let her do so ๐Ÿ˜†

Hmmm... For her character, her love to Sahadev also is not really trust worthy.. but will leave it as they say so ๐Ÿ˜‰
varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Essentially, once the War started, neither side bothered too much with the rules and regulations.

Both sides were equally guilty of malpractices - but that really can't be faulted since the stakes were so high.

It is futile exercise to find who followed the code of conduct and who didn't.

As the cliche goes, all is fair in love and war.
Edited by varaali - 11 years ago
varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
The code of conduct that Bhiishma laid down on the eve of the War remained just a theory.
In reality Bhishma was one of the first ones to violate the rules. He promised to kill ten thousand (not sure of the exact number) foot soldiers each day- knowing very well that a chariot warrior was allowed to fight only another chariot warrior.

Stung by Duryodhana's criticisms, Drona began using the divyastras on ordinary soldiers (another violation) - which was what prompted Krishna to suggest the killing of Ashwathama, the elephant.

Equally the Pandavas were also guilty of malpractices. And what has always struck me is - on the day of the Jayadrata's death, if Arjuna could plunge through three formations, killing everyone withing his sight, why was the illusion necessary? Couldn't Arjuna have killed at least Jayadratha on his own ?
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Posted: 11 years ago
Vrish,
Do you remember about the Brahmin, who went to meet Rukmini as Krishna's messanger in DBSK? Who was he?
amukta thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Is it Suka Deva
Edited by amukta - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
Minakshi What is DBSK????๐Ÿ˜•๐Ÿ˜•๐Ÿ˜•
mnx12 thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago
DBSK is Dwarakadheesh Bhagavan Shree Krishna, a show on Imagine, the channel closed down.
Yes it was shown in DBSK, they covered MB till Bakasur killing. Krishna-Rukmini wedding was beautifully shown there.
Got it he was a Brahmin named Sunanda, sent by Rukmini to Krishna with her message. Sunanda got the reply from Krshna.
Edited by mnx12 - 11 years ago

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