{| Doubts and Discussions about Mahabharata |} - Page 113

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...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
i think chakravyuha is much advanced lesson which Drona did not teach any other Pandava or Kaurava other than Arjun.. wonder if Aswathama knows.. it most probably was not time for Abhimanyu to learn it from Krishna or Pradyumna.. when the war was inevitable Arjuna began it but could not complete it..
Justitia thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Hypothetical question - Couldn't Krishna have annihilated the Kauravas even WITHOUT using Draupadi as an instrument to establish dharma?

When an assassination attempt was made on the Pandavas during Lakshagraha, why didn't Krishna (the God) punish the Kauravas at that time itself?
I'm NOT questioning the purpose of Draupadi in the story. I want to know the main rationale behind Krishna not acting sooner, and actually waiting till the vastraharan. I mean, Bhima gets poisoned as a kid, Lakshagraha takes place - but Krishna's intervention is not seen in these cases.

Granted, Bhima came back much stronger, and Vidura helped the Pandavas escape - but the fact remains that Bhima DID indeed get poisoned, and an assassination attempt on the Pandavas WAS indeed carried out. So, why didn't Krishna act during these early situations, and accordingly punish the guilty parties?

Does it all basically mean that Kurukshetra was destined right from the outset? If so, then what is the purpose of the concepts of "dharma" and "adharma", if ALL actions take place accordingly so as to lead to an "unavoidable" Kurukshetra? Isn't it one big paradox in itself? Do "dharma" and "adharma" in Mahabharata exist ONLY to decide who wins the ("destined" and "unavoidable"?) Kurukshetra war in the end?

You "blame" events and "human" characters for Kurukshetra, but the "big boss" intervenes ONLY at a certain given point, NOT before that. Isn't that curious?

Does "karma" have no meaning in such circumstances, if it is all "destined"? Are humans simply puppets in God's hands so as to achieve an "unknown and unexplained higher purpose"?
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
in my pov krishna acted indirectly. let us say he was a god and had a huge responsibility and power. but he is not a puppetmaster.he shows u the way but its human who take which way to choose. he did this in mb. let us say he would have taken sudarshana and destroyed everyone at that earlier stage, what would have been ur view abt him then? in my pov then he would just like b a dictator who finished anybody who he thought was wrong. he would have been then a person driven by revenge. nobody knows how that person is just by looking at him, it is his action that defines his character
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
I've always wondered this myself, and never gotten a satisfactory answer. On one hand, Krishna took up arms himself to destroy Kansa, Pootana, Narakasura, Sishupala, Shalva, Dantavatra, Paundrak, Sudakshina and humble Banasura; yet, for the Kurus, he kept his own family out of the war, and himself was a non-combatant. Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa & Ashwatthama were at least as formidable as the likes of Narakasura or Shalva, and so, had Krishna and his folks joined that war, they could have made short work of some of the leading antagonists, and made the killings of Duryodhan, Dushashan, Shakuni & Karna that much easier. I have never understood why he didn't go that route.

I've never believed in the pre-ordained stuff, even though curses do carry their weight.
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
I agree vrish his actions are hard to understand. I am still trying to.I have a really bad and negative weak theory which crosses my mind from time to time but heart is not ready to accept. because that puts krishna in extremely bad light.
...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
I have also had these questions and the answer is much available in the book itself.. that Krishna came to the world to reduce burden of Bhumadevi.. so Kurukshetra was something like Noah's Arc.. it makes us presume that everything was destined not just the end but the path and actions of all parties involved.. which ofcourse makes it flat and uninteresting.. I would choose not to believe it, so I prefer not to take anyone in the epic as god incarnation except Krishna who was more Human than God.. what confused me most is Gatotkacha's birth part that says 'Indra created him to be killed by Shakti Astra that will be given to Karna by Indra after he donates the Kavacha Kundala' wowowoww... that was supposed to happen some 40-50 years later.. Indra decided to take away Karna's KK to make him a mortal years before he could insult Draupadi and be one among the causes of Abhimanyu's death? the acts that he is usually condemned for in chorus?
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
@diala here as u stated abt predestined stuff I find so many similarities in greek and indian mythological stories. there was something I read in one book " there is nothing in world like coincidence ", meaning every action has some reason. but to b honest when u donot have immense faith in almighty or such stuff(just like me) such explanations are a bit hard to digest. I am not atheist but neither I am a religious type of person so my view also hangs in between sometimes it goes this way then sometimes the other way.but in case of mb if I am to believe the pandavas being demigods, penances giving power, powerful astras, immortal people, divine and unconventional births then I think I should also believe that kurukshetra was planned by lord to reduce earth burden
...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Srishti.. you are right.. am not an atheist but definetly a confused soul 😆 .. i believe I am not good enough to remove all the magical mysterious elements of MB and look into it for the sake of not losing the flavor..
Edited by ...Diala... - 11 years ago
Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
These are excerpts from 'Yuganta' taken from Karve's essay on Krishna that would perhaps help explain his role in MB. Karve bases her analysis on the BORI critical edition and looks at MB as having roots in reality. The passages do not follow each other in the book immediately, I have just posted those that I found relevant in chronological order. I hope I'm allowed to do this.

The Krishna shown in the Mahabharata has no resemblance at all to the flute-playing lover of milk-maids, the divine child or the miracle-worker of later tradition. It is true that he did win many
women, as did his friend Arjuna. But this was not a sign of running after women; it was
more a symbol of valour. Marriages among the Kshatriyas were contracted more out of
political necessity than love. Of the Pandavas Arjuna was the same age as Krishna. Krishna
always bowed to Dharma and Bhima as his elders, and was in turn shown respect to by
the twins, but he always embraced Arjuna as an equal. His personal friendship with Arjuna was a matter of pure affection and deep regard. Though he says in the Gita that
he had no ambition or objective at all, yet he had in reality many political and personal
goals to attain.

According to Karve, Krishna's instructions to the Pandavas to kill Jarasandha were the result of personal revenge and to restore the internal order of the kshatriya class which Jarasandha had disrupted by imprisoning 100 reigning kings and planning to sacrifice them.

After the Rajasuya:

All these efforts of Krishna were on the behalf of his family, the Yadavas, his friends
the Pandavas, and the whole Kshatriya class. He had, however, also a personal ambition
for himself. This ambition was to become a Vasudeva, a position approaching divinity.
The Krishna in the Mahabharata is definitely not a god, as depicted in later literature. He
was, however an extraordinary man, and his great personal ambition was to be called
Vasudeva.
Exactly what becoming a Vasudeva means is not made dear in the Mahabharata.
Ordinarily Vasudeva would be simply a patronymic: the son of Vasudeva. In that sense,
as sons of Vasudeva. Krishna and all his brothers were already Vasudevas. All we find
out from the Mahabharata is that Vasudeva was apparently a title which could be borne
by only one man in an age. The Vasudeva was a ruler of great valor, splendor and seven most precious things in the world, and the most beautiful woman. Three more things are said of him: he lacked nothing, he found something good in everything, and he never fought standing on the
ground.The Krishna of the Mahabharata can be said to possess the seven precious things,
some of which are mentioned by name in the Mahabharata and all of which are
mentioned in later Puranas. The description of his riches and personal splendor makes it
clear that he lacked nothing. He was known as the best charioteer of his times, a warrior
who never fought on the ground. Immediately after the Rajasuya sacrifice Krishna set out to establish his claim to the title of Vasudeva. He went to Pundra where the king was calling himself Vasudeva. Challenging him to combat, Krishna killed him.

After the Pandavas' exile he set aside all his other ambitions to devote himself to
their cause. The Pandavas were valorous, but they lacked the wisdom to direct their own
affairs. Krishna took it upon himself to look after their personal safety, their kingly
position, and their reputation as warriors.

After Arjun and Duryodhan had gone to Krishna to ask for his allegiance in the war:

Krishna, pleased at Arjuna's confidence and, at his request, agreed to be his charioteer.
Arjuna had made the right choice. The Pandavas did not lack warriors, what they needed
was a dispassionate, determined counsellor. That they found in Krishna. (This can perhaps explain why Krishna chose to participate in the war unarmed, who would offer advice free from a warrior's passion)

After the war

From the first day of the war to the last Krishna had saved the Pandavas. In due time
the Pandavas were put on the throne of Hastinapura and Krishna returned to Dvaraka. He
had achieved all his life's aims: security for the Yadavas and for the Kshatriya class, the
throne of Hastinapura for his friends, the Pandavas, Vasudeva-ship for himself.
The next thirty-five years must have been the most tranquil of Krishna's life. The end
came suddenly and catastrophically.

After the destruction of the Yadava clan:

Even on their last day, Krishna had to take the initiative in providing for the
safety of the others. He brought the women and children into the city and returned to
stand by Balarama, to whom he had been loyal all his life. He found Balarama dead. He
was free to go back into the safety of the city but he chose to remain outside. This
deliberate choice of death rather than safety fits into the role he had played throughout his
life. He was Krishna Vasu-deva, the resplendent one, the one who lacked nothing, the one
who gave magnificently. He could not remain with the women and children, awaiting
rescue by Arjuna. He could not live under the protection of anyone, even of the Pandavas.
He welcomed death, as all other actions of his life, with conscious deliberation.

After Krishna's death

Krishna had died. The Pandavas had died. But Krishna was reborn. The Abhiras, the
very people who destroyed Dvaraka, brought Krishna back to life by making him their
god. As they gradually established kingdoms in western India, like all other newly come
rulers in India, they laid claims to Kshatriyahood. They took the name of their
predecessors, the Yadavas and made Krishna their god. The Abhiras were keepers of
cows and they made their god a cowherd. Stories were elaborated about the child
Krishna, stealing butter, playing pranks and making love to the milkmaids.
This transformation of Krishna is something of a paradox. The Krishna of the
Mahabharata is wholly human but his complexity and a kind of uninvolvement in his
most intense action make him hard to grasp. We cannot feel close to the Mahabharata
Krishna. The cowherds made Krishna a god. Krishna's teaching was contained in the first six chapters of Bhagavadgita. Even in these chapters about half is later addition. In these
verses Krishna talks as a man to his friend who is caught in a terrible mental crisis and
needs guidance. But it is a guidance given to an equal and not to a devotee. The teaching
is free of later bhakti- (devotion to god) principle. It does not contain the wealth of
philosophical terminology seen in the later chapters of Gita. This advice given to Arjuna did not bear fruit, because the two people Arjuna did not wish to kill by his hands were not killed by him.(Bhishma and Drona)

My favourite passage from the essay 😳:

Krishna remains an elusive personality for this very reason. He worked, he thought
intensely, he advised, but we do not find him cast down or mourning because his works,
thought or advice did not bear fruit. He danced in joy, he killed in anger his own kinsmen
as we are told in Mousala-parvan, but we do not find him mouring even after the terrible
end of his clan. He made arrangements that the old and the very young and women be
taken care of and met his death. This is what he would have called Yoga, this calm, this
uninvolvement. This is why Krishna remains a figure for thought and search but never
touches one emotionally as do other figures of this great epic. It might have been for this
reason that when at last he was made into a God, he became a God with the warmest
human qualities: the naughty child, the playmate of simple cowherds, and the eternal
lover of all the young women of India.



Edited by ashwi_d - 11 years ago
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
@ashwi nice excerpt. even if I am to agree with analysis I really admire krishna. he achieved everything not got in donation. he had a gr8 mind, thinking. he was a yogi.his conception abt life was clear. he definitely is complex. being detached is not easy.

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