Jodha Akbar 76-78: Clarity and confusion

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Bond_7

@Bond_7

Rocker

Posted: 9 years ago

#71

Aunty,

Enjoyed reading your views on these episodes😊

I'm not watching the show since Ruku's MC track.

Green Jodha and yellow Jodha was funny😆 so was the comment on Salim😆

I agree with most of the the things you mentioned and thanks for ur time and effort😃.

Neither Jodha nor Jalal are flawless,both irritate me in turns😆 and the debate on Jodha Vs Jalal is never ending.

Take care Aunty😊.Pls do not stress yourself physically and mentally for the reel Jodha -Jalal.

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 9 years ago

#72

My dear Devki,

This is of course very interesting and I am sure these examples must have existed even then. But I notice two things about the cases cited here.

One, there seems to have been no problems for these rebellious wives in terms of going back to their parents on what looks at times like flimsy grounds. I do not think this could have been at all common, not only then but even in the 20th century. It is only very recently, since the past 20 years or so, that Indian parents are ready to take their daughter back when her marriage does not work out and support her for the rest of her life or till she is able to stand on her own feet. If this was not so, there would have been no dowry deaths at all.

This ready availability of parental support, without which no wife could have walked out of her marriage, would also have been dependent on the power equation between the wife's parents and the son-in-law. Here, of course, the javaisa is far more powerful than his in laws.

Secondly, these instances fail to mention what happened to these women once they returned to their maayka. I somehow doubt if their brothers and their bhabis would have been pleased at having to provide for them for the rest of their lives. They would also, in the conservative society of that period, have been looked down upon as parityaktas, ostracised at religious and social functions as being almost as inauspicious as a widow, and otherwise insulted if not directly ill-treated. This would be all the more so after the death of their parents.

If the estranged wife had any children, especially daughters, whom she had brought along with her, they would also have faced similar problems. This is often so even today, and is a major factor behind even modern wives deciding not to leave their abusive husbands.

All in all,it could not have been anything like as neat and simple as this article makes it out to be.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: devkidmd
Since we are dealing with a 16th century Royal Rajput woman I just wanted to know how things really were for these ladies.

So I did some googling and in one dusty corner of cyber world came across this research paper.

The author has given references. I do not have the resources to check the list of references for the veracity of this information. It is still a very interesting read.

If we go by some info given in it, it seems that in this very patriarchal

set up there were some feisty firecrackers who did not take things lying down. It was a fun read.

if anyone wants to read the full paper please PM me. I will forward you a copy.

The following is just a part of the whole paper which has a lot of other interesting information about life of the Rajput Royal women.

The Title of the paper is:

"LIFE INSIDE THE ZENANI DEORHI OF RAJPUTS DURING THE MEDIEVAL PERIOD"

It is natural, that in the day when polygamy was an accepted norm of the society, all the wives could not be given equal treatment and they were well aware of their position after getting married. But, there is no shortage of examples, when these elite women were not willing to suffer humiliation at their husband's hand reflecting their self respect.
The folk song of Bainabai is famous in Rajasthan.9 It is an instance of a woman who revolted against her husband, who had hit her at some issue, and wrote to her father asking for army to be sent against her husband. On hearing this, the husband tried to lure her by promising her a precious necklace, but Bainabai rejected this.

9 Manohar
Rawal Jagmal of Mehva, had Chauhan wife with three sons from her. Though the very purpose of a marriage was complete,i.e. of the continuation of line by male successors, Jagmal married a Gehlot princess. As a result the Chauhan wife got annoyed, as she feared a loss of favour to herself from her husband's side after he married the Gehlot princess and as a mark of protest, went to Barmer along with her sons.10
In another instance of protest, Umade Bathiani, queen of Rao Malde, left her husband and refused to return back to him.11 Pabuji's sister had written to her brother to take action against her husband, who had insulted her on not having brought dowry.12

These instances clearly reveal that the elite Rajput women, were not always prepared to lose their self respect and were keen to preserve their dignity as wives. Moreover, an attitude of protest is reflected in their actions, as they were not always prepared to accept the norms laid down for a married woman which were unfavourable to them and thereby giving unrestricted authority to their male counterparts.

Supiarde, was married to Nar Singh Khindawat of Mandore. Once he got annoyed with her and decided to teach her a lesson. In a bid to humiliate her, Nar Singh decided to have physical relation with her Saut' in her presence ignoring her pleas. In retaliation Supiarde vowed not to have sexual relations with her husband and subsequently left his house as a mark of protest.13 Nar Singh chased her, by that time, this incident had become a topic of gossip at the village well. When Nar Singh reached the well, a village woman asked him whose wife had run away. In reply he told her that she was his wife and tried to strengthen his stand by commenting that a woman by nature is a wanderer, who cannot be stopped, As a reply, the village woman made a very interesting comment that you must have badly insulted her, otherwise, she would not have left you. The appropriation of this comment becomes established, on the basis of the above discussed instances, where all these women took the decision of leaving their husbands, not out of their personal wish, but as a result of the circumstances which compelled them to take this action, to show their anger.

References:

*Arjadast; Jaipur records,v.s. 1750-1761, Rajasthan State Archives, Bikaner.

*Muhto Nainsi, Nainsi Ri Khyat; vol 2, Rajasthan Oriental Research Institute, Jodhpur, !962, P.P. 75-76

*history of Rajasthan', Rajasthani Granthagar, Jodhpur, 1979.

*Sodhi Hukum Singh; A Biological Account of the ladies of the Ruling House of Bikaner, Rajasthan State Archives, Bikaner.

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 9 years ago

#73

Thank you so much, my dear. It is so good to hear from you after quite some time, though the gap pleased me as it showed that you were concentrating on your studies. I am sure these are going well.

Take care, and I am going to follow your advice about putting a full stop to arguing about Jodha and Jalal!

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: Bindu_nhbr
Aunty,
Enjoyed reading your views on these episodes😊
I'm not watching the show since Ruku's MC track.

Green Jodha and yellow Jodha was funny😆 so was the comment on Salim😆

I agree with most of the the things you mentioned and thanks for ur time and effort😃.

Neither Jodha nor Jalal are flawless,both irritate me in turns😆 and the debate on Jodha Vs Jalal is never ending.

Take care Aunty😊.Pls do not stress yourself physically and mentally for the reel Jodha -Jalal.

Quote

sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 9 years ago

#74

No, no, that was not a clever trick to avoid a long answer! 😉It was the truth.

You would have also noticed that my response to your other post about the mazhar episode was quite long!

Shyamala

Originally posted by: Donjas
I love your cleverness of agreeing with everything I say so that you don't have to type. But I don't mind, not at all, please conserve your typing fingers for that brand new post that I eagerly await.

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Shah67

@Shah67

Navigator

Posted: 9 years ago

#75

Originally posted by: sashashyam
My dear Devki,

This is of course very interesting and I am sure these examples must have existed even then. But I notice two things about the cases cited here.

One, there seems to have been no problems for these rebellious wives in terms of going back to their parents on what looks at times like flimsy grounds. I do not think this could have been at all common, not only then but even in the 20th century. It is only very recently, since the past 20 years or so, that Indian parents are ready to take their daughter back when her marriage does not work out and support her for the rest of her life or till she is able to stand on her own feet. If this was not so, there would have been no dowry deaths at all.

This ready availability of parental support, without which no wife could have walked out of her marriage, would also have been dependent on the power equation between the wife's parents and the son-in-law. Here, of course, the javaisa is far more powerful than his in laws.

Secondly, these instances fail to mention what happened to these women once they returned to their maayka. I somehow doubt if their brothers and their bhabis would have been pleased at having to provide for them for the rest of their lives. They would also, in the conservative society of that period, have been looked down upon as parityaktas, ostracised at religious and social functions as being almost as inauspicious as a widow, and otherwise insulted if not directly ill-treated. This would be all the more so after the death of their parents.

If the estranged wife had any children, especially daughters, whom she had brought along with her, they would also have faced similar problems. This is often so even today, and is a major factor behind even modern wives deciding not to leave their abusive husbands.

All in all,it could not have been anything like as neat and simple as this article makes it out to be.

Shyamala Aunty

I agree with you 100% Aunty.

I too do not think that this was common at all and most women wouldn't take such a step because of the repercussions. This is not that common in India even today. Society and especially our Indian society and culture is very hard on a woman.

That's why this paper fascinated me so much. These gutsy dames must've known what is in store for them but still took this step. Of course their husbands were not as powerful as a Mughal Emperor but still.

I think when a situation involves a person's self respect or ego all bets are pretty much off.

If you remember in Amer Jalal tells Jodha that many wars have been fought because of respect or ego or something like that. I don't remember the exact words but it is so true.

Most things in life ultimately boil down to a person's sense of self worth.

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Shah67

@Shah67

Navigator

Posted: 9 years ago

#76

Originally posted by: -AkDha.Lover-

Thanks for sharing the article, Devki di. 😃

It was a very interesting read. Enjoyed it. ⭐️😃

So, there have a been quite a lot of Mirchis then, for their hubby's to handle. 😉😆

You are welcome my dear!

This is a little awkward for me to say this but I might be in the "aunty" category for you.😆

I know I sound a little not so mature in my posts but I am on the "other" side of 35.😳

Devki Aunty.😆

Edited by devkidmd - 9 years ago

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karkuzhali

@karkuzhali

Inactive

Posted: 9 years ago

#77

Well,

After going through all the comments from P1 to 10, it looks like:

1. A pattimanram ( a debate shown on tamil channels on special days), ,sans a judge.

2. Court proceedings with arguments for and against, unfortunately, the two main leads, without summoning the CVs ,who are the chief witnesses. The case is adjourned without the presence of a judge.

3. Shyamala has donned the role of an ideal teacher who does not get tired of dinning patiently, sometimes grinding her teeth😡, into the head of the most stupid and dull headed student in the class! ( Please include this hunar of her in my original list under "Who are you?")

4. I am reminded of my very young days when my mother used to make 4 types of dry curry, and 2 types of "koottu" ( all South Indian dishes) along with other delicacies for the grand pongal celebration and how she used to mix everything, all the curries with the koottu for the "kanni(u)pongal" the next day. The curries and koottu used to taste deliciously in their own individual way, like your individual comments, and the mixed curry dish also would be all the more delicious like looking at the show keeping all these observations in mind! You may think why I speak about those old days, but we are seriously discussing the old, two year-old show!

5. That I am mistaken about one thing that most of you stress. That Jodha is lavishly enjoying all the benefits of a begum without returning/giving back anything to the King. May be I did not notice any special privileges she is enjoying as a Queen, (though I thought that she was entitled to have them for being born in a Royal family, and married to an Emperor), except that she has been given a separate hojra with the permission to have Moti with her always and so many entering her hojra at any time without any announcement. The only denial on her part is not allowing Jalal to have any carnal relationship with her. A girl needs her mind to cooperate with her physical self in such situations. If she had allowed him to have her, as her duty as a wife, the situation would have been seen as a rape! Who knows what would Jalal do after that? He would not have taken a second look at her as per Ruq -and- MA's wishful thinking!

My doubt:

Will a 16th century mother-in-law talk to her son in law, facing him thus , like Mainavathi? Even 60-70 years back , the MILs are not heard of addressing their SILs directly!

SaraswathiAunty/Akka/ Nanny

P.S. Now a days I find a trend among people to forego certain things for a specific period, like foregoing taking sugar for one month , not doing any shopping for 6 months etc. I am also tempted to abstain from commenting on the JA threads for a month though I am not sure I can do,and also I know that no one will be bothered!

Edited by karkuzhali - 9 years ago

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Coolpree

@Coolpree

Explorer

Posted: 9 years ago

#78

Saraswathi Aunty/Akka, I was determined not to say anything more on this seemingly circuitous argument but your concise summary has compelled me to.

You have hit the nail on the head with your lines in blue 👏

As far as Jodha granting conjugal rights to Jalal ...I want to add something else to what you have said. I do freely admit that Jodha took far too long to accept her husband wholeheartedly. In fact I felt like shaking the daylights out of her in that famous Dec 17 episode where she famously pushes Jalal way.

However at this stage of the story, It was Jalal who told her on their wedding night that he could take her by force but he does not want to as it would give her too much importance. He made it very clear that he hates her and does not want to really have any meaningful relationship with her.

I would like to ask those hanging Jodha to dry that...what has Jalal done since his wedding night to suggest that he is interested in exercising his conjugal rights? what has he done to reconcile his relationship with her?

They both have both behaved atrociously with each other..as you said earlier what they need is marriage counseling ( unfortunately not an option in their time 😉) , satisfying each others physical demands is probably the least of their concerns.

I repeat again, that Jodha is being condemned for her future sins. At this point Jalal cannot be absolved of the responsibility for the dismal stage of their marriage. They are both knee deep in this together at this point of the show.

Originally posted by: karkuzhali

5. That I am mistaken about one thing that most of you stress. That Jodha is lavishly enjoying all the benefits of a begum without returning/giving back anything to the King. May be I did not notice any special privileges she is enjoying as a Queen, except that she has been given a separate hojra with the permission to have Moti with her always and so many entering her hojra at any time without any announcement. The only denial on her part is not allowing Jalal to have any carnal relationship with her. A girl needs her mind to cooperate with her physical self in such situations. If she had allowed him to have her, as her duty as a wife, the situation would have been seen as a rape! Who knows what would Jalal do after that? He would not have taken a second look at her as per Ruq -and- MA's wishful thinking!

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Shah67

@Shah67

Navigator

Posted: 9 years ago

#79

Originally posted by: Coolpree
Saraswathi Aunty/Akka, I was determined not to say anything more on this seemingly circuitous argument but your concise summary has compelled me to.
You have hit the nail on the head with your lines in blue 👏

As far as Jodha granting conjugal rights to Jalal ...I want to add something else to what you have said. I do freely admit that Jodha took far too long to accept her husband wholeheartedly. In fact I felt like shaking the daylights out of her in that famous Dec 17 episode where she famously pushes Jalal way.
However at this stage of the story, It was Jalal who told her on their wedding night that he could take her by force but he does not want to as it would give her too much importance. He made it very clear that he hates her and does not want to really have any meaningful relationship with her.
I would like to ask those hanging Jodha to dry that...what has Jalal done since his wedding night to suggest that he is interested in exercising his conjugal rights? what has he done to reconcile his relationship with her?
They both have both behaved atrociously with each other..as you said earlier what they need is marriage counseling ( unfortunately not an option in their time 😉) , satisfying each others physical demands is probably the least of their concerns.
I repeat again, that Jodha is being condemned for her future sins. At this point Jalal cannot be absolved of the responsibility for the dismal stage of their marriage. They are both knee deep in this together at this point of the show.

Preeti,

I think Jodha took long to accept Jalal is because they started with a totally different mind set going into this marriage. Jalal has always been fascinated/obsessed whatever you may call it with Jodha. Not so with her.

She was softening towards him right before the MC happened. That incident not only put her feelings back to square one but further back than that.

Plus we just cannot disregard the fact that Ruks and MA have really not done Jalal any favor by telling Jodha that he uses women and discards them when he is done. This thought has to be playing on her mind. That fear of the unknown about what will happen once he does get his way with her or if she does give in to her own attraction for him? Jalal can easily turn away once he is done. He has other women but what about her.

She is one of those who is used to being the top dog/favorite. Why should she settle for anything less if she doesn't have to?

But many are of the opinion that the onus for making a marriage work is almost entirely on the woman. What do you say to that?

Edited by devkidmd - 9 years ago

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Coolpree

@Coolpree

Explorer

Posted: 9 years ago

#80

Originally posted by: devkidmd

Preeti,

I think Jodha took long to accept Jalal is because they started with a totally different mind set going into this marriage. Jalal has always been fascinated/obsessed whatever you may call it with Jodha. Not so with her.

She was softening towards him right before the MC happened. That incident not only put her feelings back to square one but further back than that.

Plus we just cannot disregard the fact that Ruks and MA have really not done Jalal any favor by telling Jodha that he uses women and discards them when he is done. This thought has to be playing on her mind. That fear of the unknown about what will happen once he does get his way with her or if she does give in to her own attraction for him? Jalal can easily turn away once he is done. He has other women but what about her.

She is one of those who is used to being the top dog/favorite. Why should she settle for anything less if she doesn't have to?

But many are of the opinion that the onus for making a marriage work lies almost entirely with the woman. What do you say to that?

I agree fully with all what you have said Devki. I think at the present moment there is no question of her granting conjugal rights. I do think though that as the show progressed , she held on to her reservations for far too long...much after he had made every effort from his side to reconcile. BUT...that was much later. Not sure why she is being condemned at this stage