A turning point-DT NT Pg 17 - Page 11

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sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
That is a big IF, Sandhya, whether he would or would not have stuck to his faisla to give up everything, including his badshahat. I think he would have.

This apart, I could not stand the very fact that he could think of doing it, abandoning his awaam, just because he felt miserable for an entirely different reason. He is able to visualise this possibility again and again -the count to date being three times - without the slightest qualms or fears of the consequences. That cannot be glossed over and forgiven so easily.

Besides, as you would have seen from my post, he is not only overwrought and distraught. He is irrational, incorrect as far as the facts go - kis apnon ke khoon se iske haath bar bar range hain, except Adham? - and plain stupid most of the time. I am very fond of Jalal, but I am not prepared to excuse such hysteria, self pity and such folly.

Arjun did not want to fight against his Bhishma Pitamaha and his guru Drona. Here Jalal did not want to fight against Nigar and Mahachuchak, each of whom has already harmed him hugely, which to my mind qualifies for escapism in matters of import.

And now he is in the dumps because of a woman who wanted him deposed, and of course killed soon enough, just the other day. I thought he had stopped regarding her as a mother after the Sujamal expose. Arjun cannot compete with apna Jalal for self pity and folly!

And I see that you have not touched on the sad fact that Jalal does not, in all this ranting and raving, even once lament his own huge error of judgment re: Adham, which was what led to Atgah's death, not the takht. This too is escapism of another kind.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A

Aunty

When Jalal was prepared to give up his throne in butprasti issue it was unforgivable. He was fully in his senses and decided so. So was his hesitation to fight nigaar. But Friday's rants were merely out of depression and confusion. All of us have moments of extreme lows when we rant and rave when we feel totally dejected. Of course he declared that he had decided to give up his kingship but after he cooled down he perhaps might never had.

Didn't Arjun (Mahabharat again. ...) who has grown up learning the best of dharma, an unparalleled warrior who fought and won the viraat war single handedly, one who had been through lakshyagraha, one who witnessed and experienced the pain angst and in cheerharan hesitate and wished to do a u turn and drop his Gandeev and need the Geetopadesh to be pulled back on tracks.

Jalal is still a raw young emperor yet to be chiselled perfectly. He knows what is right but has yet to channelise his emotions. He does have a compelling weakness for his relatives and he has been cursed by someone whom he looked on as a mother and it has rattled him. He will rage and weep for a while. (Naadalum mannan aanalum avanum manidhan thane) but eventually will get over it. Jodha on Friday helped him get over it sooner. But had he really DONE something to that effect, displayed escapism in matters of import, then he deserves wallops. But otherwise i felt it was okay.

ghalibmirza thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A

Aunty

When Jalal was prepared to give up his throne in butprasti issue it was unforgivable. He was fully in his senses and decided so. So was his hesitation to fight nigaar. But Friday's rants were merely out of depression and confusion. All of us have moments of extreme lows when we rant and rave when we feel totally dejected. Of course he declared that he had decided to give up his kingship but after he cooled down he perhaps might never had.

Didn't Arjun (Mahabharat again. ...) who has grown up learning the best of dharma, an unparalleled warrior who fought and won the viraat war single handedly, one who had been through lakshyagraha, one who witnessed and experienced the pain angst and in cheerharan hesitate and wished to do a u turn and drop his Gandeev and need the Geetopadesh to be pulled back on tracks.

Jalal is still a raw young emperor yet to be chiselled perfectly. He knows what is right but has yet to channelise his emotions. He does have a compelling weakness for his relatives and he has been cursed by someone whom he looked on as a mother and it has rattled him. He will rage and weep for a while. (Naadalum mannan aanalum avanum manidhan thane) but eventually will get over it. Jodha on Friday helped him get over it sooner. But had he really DONE something to that effect, displayed escapism in matters of import, then he deserves wallops. But otherwise i felt it was okay.




sandhya ditto! look at ashoka who changed his mind set after seeing so much of bloodshed..maybe the cvz are hinting towards akbar on the path of spirituality and changing his court with better and faithful people mainly his 9 gems and then din-e-ilahi..!
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Munni, he might not have known about her other crimes, but there was enough during the Atifa track to put him off her for life. She was plotting to get him deposed, after which, whether she planned it or not, he would have been murdered. That alone proved that her love for him was false and, as he said after the Sujamal exposure, motivated by the prospect of gaining power and audha thru him. So why all this wailing now?

Besides, she had almost destroyed Chand Begum out of sheer greed.

What more evidence of her villainy does he need, and why is he now shocked at her curse? And why is he reverting to calling her Badiammi?

Shyamala Aunty

QUOTE=munnirony]jalal's main disappointment was actually only about maham. her curse made him wonder tht the same lady had always showered her love towards him. he is feeling tht if he was not the emperor the fake love wouldnt have come in his life. the main point is about cursing his kids. ya not all the dialogues were apt, but as jodha said when a mother curses a child it hurts u the most. he had forgiven people like adham or abul mali no doubt, but he never knew about maham's crimes & so when actually he came to know, he didnt forgive her. so adham, abul mali or SD's case is his fault, but maham's case is not his fault. so in others case i can agree tht his rant was not apt, but particularly in maham's case his rant is not wrong.
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Yes, and 5 years into this spiritual journey, in 1568, he had 40000 plus people wantonly massacred at Chittor, and had their heads stuck on the ramparts, solely to terrify the other holdouts into surrendering quickly!

No, no Mandy my dear, the Asoka parallel will not hold. Please also see my response on prepage to Sandhya.

Shyamala

Originally posted by: mandyg



sandhya ditto! look at ashoka who changed his mind set after seeing so much of bloodshed..maybe the cvz are hinting towards akbar on the path of spirituality and changing his court with better and faithful people mainly his 9 gems and then din-e-ilahi..!


Originally posted by: Sandhya.A

Aunty

When Jalal was prepared to give up his throne in butprasti issue it was unforgivable. He was fully in his senses and decided so. So was his hesitation to fight nigaar. But Friday's rants were merely out of depression and confusion. All of us have moments of extreme lows when we rant and rave when we feel totally dejected. Of course he declared that he had decided to give up his kingship but after he cooled down he perhaps might never had.

Didn't Arjun (Mahabharat again. ...) who has grown up learning the best of dharma, an unparalleled warrior who fought and won the viraat war single handedly, one who had been through lakshyagraha, one who witnessed and experienced the pain angst and in cheerharan hesitate and wished to do a u turn and drop his Gandeev and need the Geetopadesh to be pulled back on tracks.

Jalal is still a raw young emperor yet to be chiselled perfectly. He knows what is right but has yet to channelise his emotions. He does have a compelling weakness for his relatives and he has been cursed by someone whom he looked on as a mother and it has rattled him. He will rage and weep for a while. (Naadalum mannan aanalum avanum manidhan thane) but eventually will get over it. Jodha on Friday helped him get over it sooner. But had he really DONE something to that effect, displayed escapism in matters of import, then he deserves wallops. But otherwise i felt it was okay.




ghalibmirza thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Yes, and 5 years into this spiritual journey, in 1568, he had 40000 plus people wantonly massacred at Chittor, and had their heads stuck on the ramparts, solely to terrify the other holdouts into surrendering quickly!

No, no Mandy my dear, the Asoka parallel will not hold. Please also see my response on prepage to Sandhya.

Shyamala






shyamala, i doubt if ekta will show that chittor part..how i wish it was more of history shown..how beautifully the episode of adham's death was done as it was a part of history!
Donjas thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Munni, he might not have known about her other crimes, but there was enough during the Atifa track to put him off her for life. She was plotting to get him deposed, after which, whether she planned it or not, he would have been murdered. That alone proved that her love for him was false and, as he said after the Sujamal exposure, motivated by the prospect of gaining power and audha thru him. So why all this wailing now?

Besides, she had almost destroyed Chand Begum out of sheer greed.

What more evidence of her villainy does he need, and why is he now shocked at her curse? And why is he reverting to calling her Badiammi?

Shyamala Aunty

QUOTE=munnirony]jalal's main disappointment was actually only about maham. her curse made him wonder tht the same lady had always showered her love towards him. he is feeling tht if he was not the emperor the fake love wouldnt have come in his life. the main point is about cursing his kids. ya not all the dialogues were apt, but as jodha said when a mother curses a child it hurts u the most. he had forgiven people like adham or abul mali no doubt, but he never knew about maham's crimes & so when actually he came to know, he didnt forgive her. so adham, abul mali or SD's case is his fault, but maham's case is not his fault. so in others case i can agree tht his rant was not apt, but particularly in maham's case his rant is not wrong.


Once again, I am delighted to see your viewpoint because your take is always refreshingly unique. That is why I come to this forum, to read about other equally valid views of a certain situation.

My take is different. Here it is.

One can wonder why an Emperor like Akbar would want to give up his throne. He so many responsibilities that he has himself acknowledged, so many well wishers whose heart felt good wishes for him would negate all the vitriol of Mahamanga and even now the true affection of many relatives.

Yes, all that is true but for every human being there comes a time when the strain of the situation causes you to buckle in. For Jalal, the curse was the tipping point. One can imagine the horror of a person cursed by his mother, can there be anything more debilitating.

And that before he even had time to grieve over the death of his Atalik. The double blow caused Jalal to be in the dumps and once the despair sets in, all the good things in life that you have, don't seem to matter.

It can be argued that he should get over Maham, he should realize she never loved him. But, is it ever that simple, can we really choose our relatives. How, in the aftermath of the curse is he going to stop the flood of memories of his childhood. For Jalal, in his nomadic, parentless childhood, the love of Maham was one happy memory to savor, now even that is a lie. That can be hard to take.

There have been recent news items of celebrities who have committed suicide. One is shocked because they had everything to live for and much less strain that Jalal is going through. The human mind and how it is affected by stress is not an easy thing to decipher.

But fortunately, for most, this down in the dumps phase is temporary. One soon gets over it to face the challenges of life. If one has a trusting and loving partner like Jodha in the serial, the recovery comes faster.

And regarding the massacre at Chittor, I request to give me the original source from which you base your statement because all I get in my searches on the internet is "According to Encyclopedia Brittanica..."

I will need a lot of convincing on the 40000 because for a relatively small fort to house so many people for months on end is a great feat of administration, not to speak of small things like food for all these people and water. And here I am counting just the dead, if 40000 died then adding soldiers killed in battle and people who managed to escape the bloodshed, the total figure during the siege would have been more than 100,000. A small city, and a city totally cut off. Hard to believe so many people crammed in the fortress.

I have been to Chittor. It is big but nowhere that big.

My gut feeling is that at the conclusion of the battle there may have been a massacre, but not so many, and things were exaggerated like all in that era.
Edited by Donjas - 11 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Thank you so much, my dear Rima. I hope Jalal never does this sort of thing again, it is far too tiring to take him apart!

Shyamala Aunty

ghalibmirza thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Once again, I am delighted to see your viewpoint because your take is always refreshingly unique. That is why I come to this forum, to read about other equally valid views of a certain situation.

My take is different. Here it is.

One can wonder why an Emperor like Akbar would want to give up his throne. He so many responsibilities that he has himself acknowledged, so many well wishers whose heart felt good wishes for him would negate all the vitriol of Mahamanga and even now the true affection of many relatives.

Yes, all that is true but for every human being there comes a time when the strain of the situation causes you to buckle in. For Jalal, the curse was the tipping point. One can imagine the horror of a person cursed by his mother, can there be anything more debilitating.

And that before he even had time to grieve over the death of his Atalik. The double blow caused Jalal to be in the dumps and once the despair sets in, all the good things in life that you have, don't seem to matter.

It can be argued that he should get over Maham, he should realize she never loved him. But, is it ever that simple, can we really choose our relatives. How, in the aftermath of the curse is he going to stop the flood of memories of his childhood. For Jalal, in his nomadic, parentless childhood, the love of Maham was one happy memory to savor, now even that is a lie. That can be hard to take.

There have been recent news items of celebrities who have committed suicide. One is shocked because they had everything to live for and much less strain that Jalal is going through. The human mind and how it is affected by stress is not an easy thing to decipher.

But fortunately, for most, this down in the dumps phase is temporary. One soon gets over it to face the challenges of life. If one has a trusting and loving partner like Jodha in the serial, the recovery comes faster.

And regarding the massacre at Chittor, I request to give me the original source from which you base your statement because all I get in my searches on the internet is "According to Encyclopedia Brittanica..."

I will need a lot of convincing on the 40000 because for a relatively small fort to house so many people for months on end is a great feat of administration, not to speak of small things like food for all these people and water. And here I am counting just the dead, if 40000 died then adding soldiers killed in battle and people who managed to escape the bloodshed, the total figure during the siege would have been more than 100,000. A small city, and a city totally cut off. Hard to believe so many people crammed in the fortress.

I have been to Chittor. It is big but nowhere that big.

My gut feeling is that at the conclusion of the battle there may have been a massacre, but not so many, and things were exaggerated like all in that era.


donjas, you have so beautifully explained what maham meant to him and what you said in bold is bang on👏..i too feel that this situation was more of a personal situation..and as far as massacre is concerned as said by jalal that when he is a warrior he is a changed person and then only thing that matters is victory, even i would want to read more on that chittor incident!
Edited by mandyg - 11 years ago
..Anusha.. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: munnirony

@aunty, i agree on sum points & i dont agree on sum. but as i had always viewed tht, like jodha we, whether jalal fans or akdha fans, want him to be the best whether as an emperor or as an husband, so the debate continues. but honestly we can have several interpretations of the takt scene, we may or may not agree with each other, but at the end of the day tht scene was simply to show the latest tagline," jodha bani jalal ki taqat" & to show how jodha becomes the ultimate support system of jalal. evrything will be forgiven & forgotten tomorrow & honestly as per precap things r once again will be harem related.



I'm not a fan of Jalal or AkDha or Jodha. I'm just a fan of a good and solid story told well. But unfortunately, as Divy has said somewhere...we can now only look for some moments of brilliance while enduring a 'story' that will manufacture 'jodha bani jalal ki taqat' situations. In the process, Jodha also will wax and wane in her strength. To balance out Jalal's highs and lows. When he's low, then she'll rise to the occasion. And this is a pity when they are both their own people and shouldn't be made to depend so much on each other's moods and temperaments. Especially given who they are. It just becomes a soap opera.

This is why, apart from them, the curse is the only other plot point introduced on Friday. Hope on Monday they start on a fresher note with other issues.
..Anusha.. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
There have been recent news items of celebrities who have committed suicide. One is shocked because they had everything to live for and much less strain that Jalal is going through. The human mind and how it is affected by stress is not an easy thing to decipher.

But fortunately, for most, this down in the dumps phase is temporary. One soon gets over it to face the challenges of life.


@Donjas your above is a very good point. Let's hope Jalal has bounced back next week.
Edited by PadBear - 11 years ago

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