Akbar - MUZ Kids :: Part-6 : JA is NOT Fiction - Page 16

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adiana12 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Kaana, I have always maintained that the Universe is immensely compassionate and wants all souls to merge with the divine - the ultimate in Ishq - and for this she sends innumerable keys and lessons - until each soul learns all the lessons meant to be learnt and uses all keys needed to open the locks - and if anyone refuses to learn these lessons, she in her compassion also becomes the Zen Master and makes the soul learn by taking the whip / stick - and hence I will very confidently say, if not Jodha then there definitely would have been another - especially in the case of Akbar, since he had kept his heart and soul always open and connected to the Universe - and pls do not go by EK's tagline of a Jallad with no heart, since that definitely was not the real living breathing man of who all his contemporary historians have written and of who even Swami Vivekananda has sung about.
history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago


@Sandhya and Ann

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/108099512

My two cents as a debate on history was going on here. :)
MyExiledSoul thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Thanks a lot Abhay for the much awaited post 😊
I'm shocked to know Murad and the two daughters Shakrunnisa and Aram were from HK. Isn't it surprising and in fact a shameful thing that none of the scholars/historians ever tried to dig the truth 😡.

I'm yet to read the entire post so will comment later but I'm just curious to know that MUZ never suffered any miscarriage after Salim and in fact all of her children after him survived. But at the same time some of Akbar's children from other wives did not survive !. Was it because of him being extra careful for not letting her stay in harem ?
Edited by Shweta16 - 11 years ago
RadhikaS0 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Hi Sandhya, Ann, Kaana, Pujita, Abhay, Adi,

That was a stimulating discussion and I enjoyed it thoroughly. Thanks so much!

@pals2411: Thanks for liking my comments!
roshanehkhan thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
akbar should be called akbar the saint 😆
well thanks for the info you guys have putten lot of hard work so hope the info comes true
out of 12 children akbar & muz have 10 children together thats surpising because akbar married many womens after jodha & it is said akbar is not one men women 😕

doesn't question rise on the birth after 30's / 40's? i' don't know much about medical but it looks strange 😕 akbar didn't went to other wives or concubines when MUZ was pregnant 😕 it is said kings turn to other womens when there queen wife is pregnant
mumtaz mahal passed away in the age of 38 probably because of pregnancy complications & jodha given a birth to baby age 42 😲

abhay you have posted 3 versions of jahangirnama & said they are not authentic so can you plz give some names of the writers of jahangirnama whom version are authentic 😃
i think i read the 2nd jahangirnama which you mentioned on the first page 😆
here is the full preference of the book the writer gone mad in recorrecting the
info adding notes 😆 it very long 😆

PREFACE.

Mr. Rogers translated the Memoirs of Jahangir several
years ago from the edition which Sayyid Ahmad printed
at Ghazipur in 1863 and at Allyghur in 1864. Orientalists
are greatly indebted to the Sayyid for his disinterested
labours, but his text seems to have been made from
a single and defective MS. and is often incorrect,
especially in the case of proper names. I have collated
it with the excellent MSS. in the India Office and
the British Museum, and have thus been able to make
numerous corrections. I have also consulted the MS.
in the Library of the R.A.S., but it is not a good one.
I have, with Mr. Rogers's permission, revised the trans-
lation, and I have added many notes.

There is an account of the Memoirs in the sixth volume
of Elliot & Dowson's " History of India," and there the
subject of the various recensions is discussed. There is
also a valuable note by Dr. Rieu in his " Catalogue of
Persian MSS.," i, 253. It is there pointed out that there
is a manuscript translation of the first nine years of the
Memoirs by William Erskine in the British Museum.
I have consulted this translation and found it helpful.
The MS. is numbered Add. 26,611. The translation is,
of course, excellent, and it was made from a good MS.

A translation of what Dr. Rieu calls the garbled
Memoirs of Jahangir was made by Major David Price
and published by the Oriental Translation Committee of
the Royal Asiatic Society in 1829. The author of this
work is unknown, and its history is an unsolved problem.
It is occasionally fuller than the genuine Memoirs, and
it contains some picturesque touches, such as the account^
of Akbar's deathbed. But it is certain that it is, in part
at least, a fabrication, and that it contains statements
which Jahanglr could never have made. Compare, for
instance, the account of the death -of Sohrab, the son
of Mirza Rustam, near the end of Price's translation,
pp. 138-9, with that given in the genuine Memoirs in the
narrative of the fifteenth year of the reign, p. 293, and
also in the Iqbal-nama, p. 139. Besides being inaccurate,
the garbled or spurious Memoirs are much shorter than
the genuine work, and do not go beyond the fifteenth
year. Price's translation, too, was made from a single and
badly written MS. 1 which is now in the R.A.S. Library.
Dr. Rieu remarks that it is to be regretted that so poor
a fabrication as the garbled Memoirs should have been
given to the world as a genuine production of Jahanglr.
This being so, it is appropriate that the present translation
of the genuine Memoirs should be published by the Royal
Asiatic Society.

When Jahanglr had written his Memoirs for the first
twelve years of his reign he made them into a volume,
and had a number of copies made and distributed (Elliot,
vi, 360). The first of these he gave to Shah Jahan, who
was then in high favour. The present publication is
a translation of the first volume of the Memoirs, but
the translation of the whole Memoirs, together with the
additions of Mu'tamad Khan and Muhammad Hadl, has
been completed, and it is to be hoped that its publication
will follow in due course.

Jahanglr reigned for twenty-two years, but ill-health
and sorrow made him give up the writing of his Memoirs
in the seventeenth year of his reign (see Elliot, vi, 280).
He then entrusted the task to Mu'tamad Khan, the author
''1 It is owing to the crabbed writing of Price's MS. that at p. 21
Jahanglr is made to say that the Prince of Kashmir belonged to the
society of Jogis. The real statement is that the prince belonged to
the Chak family. ''
of the Iqbal-nama, who continued the Memoirs to the
beginning of the nineteenth year. He then dropped
writing the Memoirs in the name of the emperor, but
he continued the narrative of the reign, to Jahangir's
death, in his own work, the Iqbal-nama. Muhammad
Hadi afterwards continued the Memoirs down to
Jahangir's death, but his work is little more than an
abridgment of the Iqbal-nama. Sayyid Ahmad's edition
contains the continuations of the Memoirs by Mu'tamad
and Muhammad Hadi, and also Muhammad Hadi's
preface and introduction. But this preface and intro-
duction have not been translated by Mr. Rogers, and
I do not think that a translation is necessary. Muhammad
Hadi is a late writer (see Elliot, vi, 392), his date being
the first quarter of the eighteenth century, and his
introduction seems to be almost wholly derived from the
Ma'asir-i-Jahangiri of Kamgar Husaini (Elliot, vi, 257).
It consists mainly of an account of Jahangir's life from
his birth up to his accession.

It is perhaps unnecessary to say anything about the
importance of Jahangir's Memoirs. They give a lively
picture of India in the early decades of the seventeenth
century, and are aValuable supplement to the Akbar-nama.
I may be allowed, however, to end this preface with the
following remarks which I contributed to the Indian
Magazine for May, 1907: "

" The Royal authors of the East had more blood in
them than those kings whose works have been catalogued
by Horace Walpole. To find a parallel to them we must
go back to Julius Caesar, and even then the advantage is
not upon the side of Europe. After all, the commentaries
of the famous Roman are a little disappointing, and
certainly the Memoirs of Babar and Jahangir are far
more human and fuller of matter than the story of the
Gallic Wars. All Muhammadans have a fancy for writing
chronicles and autobiographies; and several Muhammadan
kings have yielded to the common impulse. Central Asia
has given us the Memoirs of Tamarlane, Babar, and Haidar,
and the chronicle of Abu-1-ghazi ; Persia has given us the
Memoirs of Shah Tahmasp, and India the Memoirs of the
Princess Gulbadan and Jahangir. In modern times we see
the same impulse at work, for we have the biography of
the late Ameer of Afghanistan and the diary of the Shah
of Persia.

" The contributions to literature by Royal authors which
come to us from the East form a department by them-
selves, and one which is of great value. Nearly all Eastern
histories are disfigured by adulation. Even when the
author has had no special reason for flattery and for
suppression of truth, he has been dazzled by the greatness
of his subject, and gives us a picture which no more
reveals the real king than does a telescope the real
constitution of the Morning Star. But when Eastern
monarchs give us chronicles, the case is different. They
have no occasion for fear or favour, and mercilessly expose
the failings of their contemporaries. Not that they are
to be trusted any more than other Orientals when
speaking of themselves. Babar has suppressed the story
of his vassalage to Shah Isma'il, of his defeat at
Ghajdawan, and his treatment of 'Alam Lodi ; and
Jahanglr has glossed over his rebellion against his father,
and the circumstances of Shir-afgan's death. But when
they have to speak of others " whether kings or nobles"
they give us the whole truth, and perhaps a little more.
An amiable Princess like 1 Gulbadan Begam may veil the
faults and weaknesses of her brothers Humayun and
Hindal; but Babar strips the gilt off nearly every one
whom he mentions, and spares no one " not even his
own father.

"The Memoirs of Babar, Haidar, and Gulbadan have
been translated into English, and those of Tahmasp have
been translated into German: but unfortunately Jahanglr's
have never been fully translated, 1 though there are extracts
in Elliot & Dowson's History, and Major Price many
years ago gave us from an imperfect manuscript a garbled
account of a few years of his Memoirs. Yet in reality
Jahangir's Memoirs are not inferior in interest to those
of Babar. Indeed, we may go further and say there is
twice as much matter in them as in Babar's Memoirs,
and that they are by far the most entertaining of the
two works, Not that Jahanglr was by any means as
remarkable a man as his great - grandfather. He was
a most faulty human being, and his own account of
himself often excites our disgust and contempt. But he
had the sense not to confine his narrative to an account
of himself, and he has given us a picture of his father,
the great Akbar, which is a bigger ' plum ' than anything
in Babar's Memoirs. But his account of himself has also
its charm, for it reveals the real man, and so he lives
for us in his Memoirs just as James VI " to whom, and
to the Emperor Claudius, he bears a strange and even
ludicrous resemblance " lives in the ' Fortunes of Nigel' or
Claudius in Suetonius and Tacitus. Jahanglr was indeed
a strange mixture. The man who could stand by and
see men flayed alive, and who, -as he himself tells us, put
one man to death and had two others hamstrung 1 because
they showed themselves inopportunely and frightened
away his game, could yet be a lover of justice and could
spend his Thursday evenings in holding high converse.
He could quote Firdusi's verse against cruelty to animals "
' Ah ! spare yon emmet, rich in hoarded grain "
He lives with pleasure, and he dies with pain ' ;
and be soft-hearted enough to wish that his father were
alive to share with him the delicious mangoes of India.
He could procure the murder of Abu-1-fazl and avow
1 A translation was begun by the Rev. Mr. Lowe for the Asiatic
Society of Bengal, but only one fasciculus was published. This was
in 1889.
the fact without remorse, and also pity the royal elephants
because they shivered in winter when they sprinkled
themselves with cold water. 'I observed this,' he says,
and so I ordered that the water should be heated to
fche temperature of hike-warm milk.' And he adds: 'This
was entirely my own idea ; nobody had ever thought of it
before.' One good trait in Jahangir was his hearty enjoy-
ment of Nature and his love for flowers. Babar had
this also, but he was old, or at least worn out, when
he came to India, and lie was disgusted by an Indian
attempt to poison him, and so his description of India
is meagre and splenetic. Jahangir, on the other hand,
is a true Indian, and dwells delightedly on the charms
of Indian flowers, particularises the palas, the bokul, and
the ehampa, and avows that no fruit of Afghanistan or
Central Asia is equal to the mango. He loved, too, to
converse with pandits and Hindu ascetics, though he is
contemptuous of their avatars, and causes the image of
Vishnu as the boar avatar to be broken and flung into
the Pushkar lake.
"It is a remark of Hallam's that the best attribute of
Bluhammadan princes is a rigorous justice in chastising
the offences of others. Of this quality Jahangir, in spite
of all his weaknesses, had a large share, and even to this
day he is spoken of with respect by Muhammadans on
account of his love of justice. It is a pathetic circumstance
that it was this princely quality which was to some extent
the cause of the great affront put upon him by Mahabat
Khan. Many complaints had been made to Jahangir of
the oppressions of Mahabat in Bengal, and crowds of
suppliants had come to Jahangir's camp. It was his
desire to give them redress and to punish Mahabat for
his exactions, together with his physical and mental
weakness, which led to his capture on the banks of the
Jhilam.
"One of the many interesting observations in his Memoirs
is his account of an inscription he saw at Hindaun. He
says that in the thirteenth year of his reign, as he was
marching back to Agra, he found a verse by someone
inscribed on the pillar of a pleasure-house on an islet
in the lake at Hindaun. He then proceeds to quote it,
and it turns out to be one of Omar Khayyam's ! This
is FitzGerald's paraphrase : "

Tor some we loved, the loveliest and the best
That from his vintage Time hath prest,
Have drunk their Cup a Round or two before,
And one by one crept silently to rest.'

" The same quatrain has also been quoted by Badayimi
in his history, and the interesting thing about Jahangir's
quotation of it is that he could see the beauty of the verse
and at the same time did not know who was the author.
There is also an interest in the fact that the third line
contains a different reading from that given in Whinfield's
edition of the text. Hindaun is in the Jaipur territory,
and one would like to know if the inscription still exists.

"Among other things in Jahangir's Memoirs there is the
description of the outbreak of the Plague, given to him by
a lady of his court [which has been quoted by Dr. Simpson
in his book upon Plague], and there is a very full account
of Kashmir, which is considerably superior to that in the
Ay in Akbari, which Sir Walter Lawrence has praised."

With reference to the portrait of Jahangir prefixed to
this volume, it may be interesting to note that it appears
from Mr. E. B. Ha veil's "Indian Sculpture," p. 203, that
the British Museum possesses a drawing by Rembrandt
which was copied from a Moghul miniature, and which
has been pronounced by Mr. Rouffaer to be a portrait of
Jahangir. Coryat (Purchas, reprint, iv, 473) thus describes
Jahangir's personal appearance : " " He is fifty and three
years of age, his nativity-day having been celebrated with
wonderful pomp since my arrival here. On that day he
weighed himself in a pair of golden scales, which by great
chance' I Saw the same day; a custom he observes most
inviolably every year. ' He is of complexion neither white
in ii- black, but of a middle betwixt them. I know not
how in express it with a more expressive and significant
epithetoi) than olive An olive colour his face presenteth.
lie is of a seemly composition of body, of a stature little
unequal (as I guess not without grounds of probability) to
mine, but much more corpulent than myself.
As regards the bibliography of the Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri,
I have to note that there is an Urdu translation by Munshi
Ahmad 'All Slmab of Rampura, that is, Aligarh in Tonk.
It was made from Muhammad Hadi's edition under the
patronage of Muhammad Ibrahim 'All Khan Nawab of
Tonk, and was published by Newal Kishor in 1291 (1874).
There is also a Hindi translation bj^ Munshi Debt Prasad
which was published in 1905 at Calcutta by the Bharat
Mitra Press. The Urdu translation referred to by
Mr. Blumhardt in his Catalogue of Hindustani MSS.,
p. 61, and noticed by Elliot, vi, 401, and Garcin de
Tassy, hi, 301, is, as the two latter writers have remarked,
a translation of the Iqbal-nama. The MS. referred to by
Elliot, vi, 277^ as having been in the possession of General
Thomas Paterson Smith, and which is described in Ethe's
Catalogue of the India Office MSS., No. 2833, p. 1533, was
made by Sayyid Muhammad, the elder brother of Sayyid
Ahmad. As the end Of the MS. the copyist gives some
account of himself and of his family. He made the copy
from copies in the Royal Library and in the possession of
Rajah Roghu Nath Singh alias Lai Singh - Jaipur. He
finished it in October, 1843. Sayyid Muhammad was
Munsif of Hutgam in the Fathpur district. He died
young in 1845. My friend Mr. T. W. Arnold, of the
India Office, informs me that Sayyid Ahmad told him
that he found a valuable illustrated MS. of the Tuzuk
in the debris of the Delhi Royal Library, and took it
home, but that it was lost when his house was plundered
by the mutineers. There is in the Bodleian a copy in
Sayyid Ahmad's own handwriting. He states that he
made use of ten good MSS. The Englishman at whose
request he made the copy was John Panton Gubbins, who
was once Sessions Judge of Delhi. This copy is described
in the Bodleian Catalogue, p. 117, No. 221. The MS.
No. 220 described on the same page was brought home
by Fraser, and is a good one, but only goes down to the
end of the 14th year.

H. Beveridge.

March, 1909.
Postscript. " Since writing; this Preface I have been



enabled by the kindness of Mr. Irvine to examine the
Hindi Jahano-ir-nama of Debl Prasad. It is not a transla-



tion, but an abstract, and I do not think it is of much
value. Being a Jodhpur man he has been able, perhaps,
to correct some spellings of places, but he does not seem to
have consulted any MSS., and when he comes to a difficulty
he shirks it. The most valuable adjunct to the Tuzuk,
after the Iqbal-nama, is the Ma'asir-i-Jahangiri of Kamgar
Husaini. It is important as giving the early history of
Jahangir, that is, of the time when he was Prince Selim.
There are three copies of his work in the British Museum,
but the so-called Maathir-i-Jahangiri of the India Office
Library, No. 3098, or 324 of the new Catalogue, is only
a copy of the Iqbal-nama.

I regret that the number of Errata and Addenda is so
large, but when I began the revision I did not know that
Sayyid Ahmad's text was so incorrect. It will be seen
that at pp. 158 and 162 I have made two erroneous notes.

H. B.
...
...
...


here is the info about akbar childrens in this version of jahangirnama
34 Akbar's children.


Three months after my birth my sister, Shahzada Khanam,
was born to one of the royal concubines ; they gave her
over to his (Akbar's) mother, Maryam Makani. After her
a son was born to one of the concubines, and received the
name of Shah Murad. As his birth occurred in the hill
country of Fathptir, he was nicknamed Pahari. When
my revered father sent him to conquer the Deccan, he
had taken to excessive drinking through associating with
unworthy persons, so that he died in his 30th year, in
the neighbourhood of Jalnapur, in the province of Berar.
His personal appearance was fresh-coloured ; he was thin
in body and tall of stature. Dignity and authority were
evident in his movements, and manliness and bravery
manifested themselves in his ways. On the night of
Jumada-1-awwal 10th, a.h. 979 (September, 1572), another
son was born to one of the concubines. As his birth took
place at Ajmir in the house of one of the attendants of the
blessed shrine of the reverend Khwaja Mu'Inu-d-dln Chishti,
whose name was Shaikh Daniyal, this child was called
Daniyal.

After the death of my brother Shah Murad, he (Akbar),
towards the end of his reign, sent Daniyal to conquer the
Deccan and followed him himself. When my revered father
was besieging Asir (Aslrgarh) he, with a large body of
nobles such as the Khankhanan and his sons, and Mirza
Yusuf Khan, invested the fort of Ahmadnagar, and it came


ACCOUNT OF SULTAN DANIYAL. 35

into the possession of the victorious officers about the time
that Asir was taken. After my father 'Arsh-ashyanI had
returned in prosperity and victory from Burhanpur towards
his capital, he gave the province to Daniyal and left him in
possession of that territory. Daniyal took to improper ways,
like his brother Shah Murad, and soon died from excessive
drinking, in the 33rd year of his age. His death occurred
in a peculiar way. He was very fond of guns and of
hunting with the gun. He named one of his guns yaka
u janaza, ' the same as the bier,' and himself composed this
couplet and had it engraved on the gun : "
"From the joy of the chase with thee, life is fresh and new ;
To everyone whom thy dart strikes, 'tis the same as his bier." 1

When his drinking of wine was carried to excess, and the
circumstance was reported to my father, f armans of reproach
were sent to the Khankhanan. Of course he forbade it,
and placed cautious people to look after him properly.
When the road to bring wine was completely closed, he
began to weep and to importune some of his servants, and
said : " Let them bring me wine in any possible way." He
said to Murshid Quli Khan, a musketeer who was in his
immediate service : " Pour some wine into this yaka u
janaza, and bring it to me." That wretch, in hope of favour,
undertook to do this, and poured double-distilled spirit into
the gun, which had long been nourished on gunpowder and
the scent thereof, and brought it. The rust of the iron was
dissolved by the strength of the spirit and mingled with it,
and the prince no sooner drank of it than he fell down.

" No one should draw a bad omen : 2
If he does, he draws it for himself."

36 DANIYAL AND SHAKARU-N-NISA.

Daniyal was of pleasing figure, of exceedingly agreeable
manners and appearance ; he was very fond of elephants
and horses. It was impossible for him to hear of anyone
as having a good horse or elephant and not take it from
him. He was fond of Hindi songs, and would occasionally
compose verses with correct idiom in the language of the
people of India, which were not bad.

After the birth of Daniyal a daughter was born to Bibi
Daulat-Shad whom they named Shakaru-n-nisa Begam. 1
As she was brought up in the skirt of my revered father's
care, she turned out very well. She is of good disposition
and naturally compassionate towards all people. From
infancy and childhood she has been extremely fond of me,
and there can be few such relationships between brother
and sister. The first time when, according to the custom of
pressing the breast of a child and a drop of milk is
perceptible, they pressed my sister's breast and milk
appeared, my revered father said to me : " Baba ! drink
this milk, that in truth this sister may be to thee as a
mother." God, the knower of secrets, knows that from
that day forward, after I drank that drop of milk, I have
felt love for my sister such as children have for their
mothers.


After some time another girl was born to this same
Daulat-Shad, and he (Akbar) called her Aram Banu
Begam. 2 Her disposition was on the whole inclined to
excitement and heat. My father was very fond of her, so
much so that he described her impolitenesses as politenesses,
and in his august sight they, from his great love, did not
appear bad. Repeatedly he honoured me by addressing
me, and said : " Baba ! for my sake be as kind as I am,
after me, to this sister, who in Hindi phrase is my darling

1 The MSS. have Shakar-nisar, 'sugar-sprinkling.' She lived into
Shah-Jahan's reign.

2 She died unmarried in Jahangir's reign.
...

the info about the childrens almost match which you written about some of the childrens of akbar except the mother name
& the underline green parts!!!! if shakarun nisa was MUZ daughter & salim own real sister he already had love & affection for her why akbar said '' this sister may be to thee as a
mother." & said salim to drink her milk ? does'nt it indicate that mother of shakarun nisa was not MUZ thats why akbar said so to make salim feel affection & love for his young sister
for aram banu begum akbar said '' " Baba ! for my sake be as kind as I am, after me, to this sister, who in Hindi phrase is my darling '' why akbar not said ''your sister'' doesn't it sound strange &
last girl was born when MUZ was 42 😲


Edited by roshanehkhan - 11 years ago
history_geek thumbnail
11th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail + 5
Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

Hi Sandhya, Ann, Kaana, Pujita, Abhay, Adi,

That was a stimulating discussion and I enjoyed it thoroughly. Thanks so much!

@pals2411: Thanks for liking my comments!




Thanx Radhika. :)



@All...
Will reply soon. :)
Edited by history_geek - 11 years ago
Cleo12345 thumbnail
11th Anniversary Thumbnail Navigator Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 11 years ago
@ Roshankhan... Interesting response...I love history but dont consider myself to be an expert on Mughal history, therefore will refrain from commenting on the history aspect of your post...however, I am an expert in the field of medicine and will be happy to discuss that part with you...i am not sure about your reasons for suggesting that pregnancy after age 40 is unlikely( yes, am aware of 16 th century conditions...have read a lot about the practice of medicine in those days) please tell me exactly what made you come to the conclusion that MUZ could not give birth at age 42 so I can answer your question better...I promise to get you the opinion of my friends/ colleagues who specialize in the field of advanced age pregnancy on this( keeping 16th century in mind...they are extremely intellegent with a keen interest in history)...I loved the thread but always read something like this with a pinch of salt...therefore analyzed the medical aspects of this before commenting...I do understand your doubts and would love to help you with clarification...just tell me exactly why you concluded that pregnancy at age 42 was not possible in those days... Of course, besides the obvious fact that the chances of getting pregenant go down with mother's age...it does but doesn't go down to zero ...infact a lot of women in the present century are concieving in their late thirties and forties...with and without help...let me know so I can answer you in the best possible manner. Thanks.
history_geek thumbnail
11th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail + 5
Posted: 11 years ago
@roshanehkhan

Thanx for substantiating our points by quoting the entire preface of Version-2 of Jahangirnama. We also mentioned that we have taken these points regarding multiple Jahangirnamas, from this Version. So, there's nothing new in posting this. So, you must have seen YOURSELF that this Jahangirnama has been made from so many manuscripts, and at times 10 manuscripts have been used, as per the preface itself.
BTW, I could not understand why so many versions of Jahangirnama came into existence.?.. As far as we ALL know, autobiographies are written ONCE, NOT 10 times, or more ; and we get 1 Version NOT many Versions on any autobiography, though this case seems Unique.!!!!!!.😉

Coming to your questions.
Sorry to tell you that we do not know anything "called" Authentic Jahangirnama, as EVEN the translator is not sure. I would wait if any friend of mine helps in clarifying the mystery of MULTIPLE Jahangirnamas. About Daniyal & Murad, the thing written on Page-1 is mentioned in other manuscripts as well, not only in this VERSION OF Jahangirnama, which has been clearly stated in the post. Hence, it was quoted.

The part you quoted on previous page about Shakr-un-Nissa Begum, talks about > """" CUSTOM of having '" A '" milk 'DROP' NOT drinking MILK """. Kindly see the difference, between "having A Milk drop" and " drinking Milk " . And, then the reason for this is given as -->> " EQUATING that SISTER of HIM as his MOTHER ". What's big deal here.?. First, a custom has been stated and then, a REASON is given for the custom. I guess it was self-explanatory.

Your Another Question...>>>> """""Why Akbar said '' this sister may be to thee as a mother.""""
^^^^^
The reason for this, was provided in the text itself.
And read the text carefully. It was being done to make Jahangir, feel HER, like his mother . And, after that, Jahangir says -> " After I drank that drop of milk, I have felt love for "MY SISTER" such as children have for their MOTHERS. " <<<<<<----Now, i hope this should be clear.

____________________________________________

Finally, after singing this story,🥱 NOW Let me give something as a "FOOD FOR THOUGHT".😉 The Version-1, of Jahangirnama which has been posted by us, on Page-1, neither talks of this " Milk CUSTOM " NOR it talks of any daughter of Akbar called Shakr-un-Nissa Begum.😉 I am thinking why was she MISSING from Version-1 and Where was this Custom.??. BTW, Akbarnama, Volume-3, Pg-990, mentions Shakr-un-Nissa Begum, who got married in the House of Hamida Bano Begum, in Lahore, on 4th August 1593, to Mirza Shahrukh, who was the son of Ibrahim Mirza and his second wife, Khanum Begum( widow of Kamran, Humayun's brother). And, this daughter was MISSING from Version-1 of Jahangirnama.???.😉

One Version mentions this daughter, and another Version DOES NOT EVEN writes the name of this daughter.?.😉 Even after all this, if anyone STILL wants to BRING IN Jahangirnama, then can't help it, as a LOT has been posted on Page-1 already, about these JahangirNama'S' ..

_____________________________________________

Coming to your Point about MUZ conceiving at 42, and giving birth to Aram Bano Begum.

Without writing much, i would only mention one simple thing-->> When the case of Daulat Shah (as per Jahangirnama), is acceptable in giving birth to Aram Banu Begum. Then, why not about MUZ.?. I mean, if MUZ was aging, then similar signs must be visible in Daulat Shad as well.?. Isn't it.?. Or does "anyone" wants to say that Daulat Shad remained in her 20's and "ONLY" MUZ turned out to be in her 40's , and HENCE such a doubt cropped up NOW, on the basis of Age .?.😉 If MUZ was aging , then same applies to Daulat Shad also.?. So, what's the problem.

Finally ending here; we had ALREADY put a note on Page-1 before also, that we are still reading , and posted our present research. We will share if we get something new. The exercise is still on, reading/digging history is always fascinating. Thanks.


roshanehkhan thumbnail
15th Anniversary Thumbnail Explorer Thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Cleo12345

@ Roshankhan... Interesting response...I love history but dont consider myself to be an expert on Mughal history, therefore will refrain from commenting on the history aspect of your post...however, I am an expert in the field of medicine and will be happy to discuss that part with you...i am not sure about your reasons for suggesting that pregnancy after age 40 is unlikely( yes, am aware of 16 th century conditions...have read a lot about the practice of medicine in those days) please tell me exactly what made you come to the conclusion that MUZ could not give birth at age 42 so I can answer your question better...I promise to get you the opinion of my friends/ colleagues who specialize in the field of advanced age pregnancy on this( keeping 16th century in mind...they are extremely intellegent with a keen interest in history)...I loved the thread but always read something like this with a pinch of salt...therefore analyzed the medical aspects of this before commenting...I do understand your doubts and would love to help you with clarification...just tell me exactly why you concluded that pregnancy at age 42 was not possible in those days... Of course, besides the obvious fact that the chances of getting pregenant go down with mother's age...it does but doesn't go down to zero ...infact a lot of women in the present century are concieving in their late thirties and forties...with and without help...let me know so I can answer you in the best possible manner. Thanks.



thats nice to hear don't worry there are many experts in Mughal history here 😆 well as i said i don't know much about medical i ask these questions because i think 30+ having pregnancy almost every year doesn't it effect the health of mother or child? premature baby ? every year pregnancy mother baby survival chances in16th century health care system? & 40+ is count old for pregnancy if i'm not wrong 😕
roshanehkhan thumbnail
15th Anniversary Thumbnail Explorer Thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: history_geek

@roshanehkhan

Thanx for substantiating our points by quoting the entire preface of Version-2 of Jahangirnama. We also mentioned that we have taken these points regarding multiple Jahangirnamas, from this Version. So, there's nothing new in posting this. So, you must have seen YOURSELF that this Jahangirnama has been made from so many manuscripts, and at times 10 manuscripts have been used, as per the preface itself.
BTW, I could not understand why so many versions of Jahangirnama came into existence.?.. As far as we ALL know, autobiographies are written ONCE, NOT 10 times, or more ; and we get 1 Version NOT many Versions on any autobiography, though this case seems Unique.!!!!!!.😉

Coming to your questions.
Sorry to tell you that we do not know anything "called" Authentic Jahangirnama, as EVEN the translator is not sure. I would wait if any friend of mine helps in clarifying the mystery of MULTIPLE Jahangirnamas. About Daniyal & Murad, the thing written on Page-1 is mentioned in other manuscripts as well, not only in this VERSION OF Jahangirnama, which has been clearly stated in the post. Hence, it was quoted.

The part you quoted on previous page about Shakr-un-Nissa Begum, talks about > """" CUSTOM of having '" A '" milk 'DROP' NOT drinking MILK """. Kindly see the difference, between "having A Milk drop" and " drinking Milk " . And, then the reason for this is given as -->> " EQUATING that SISTER of HIM as his MOTHER ". What's big deal here.?. First, a custom has been stated and then, a REASON is given for the custom. I guess it was self-explanatory.

Your Another Question...>>>> """""Why Akbar said '' this sister may be to thee as a mother.""""
^^^^^
The reason for this, was provided in the text itself.
And read the text carefully. It was being done to make Jahangir, feel HER, like his mother . And, after that, Jahangir says -> " After I drank that drop of milk, I have felt love for "MY SISTER" such as children have for their MOTHERS. " <<<<<<----Now, i hope this should be clear.

____________________________________________

Finally, after singing this story,🥱 NOW Let me give something as a "FOOD FOR THOUGHT".😉 The Version-1, of Jahangirnama which has been posted by us, on Page-1, neither talks of this " Milk CUSTOM " NOR it talks of any daughter of Akbar called Shakr-un-Nissa Begum.😉 I am thinking why was she MISSING from Version-1 and Where was this Custom.??. BTW, Akbarnama, Volume-3, Pg-990, mentions Shakr-un-Nissa Begum, who got married in the House of Hamida Bano Begum, in Lahore, on 4th August 1593, to Mirza Shahrukh, who was the son of Ibrahim Mirza and his second wife, Khanum Begum( widow of Kamran, Humayun's brother). And, this daughter was MISSING from Version-1 of Jahangirnama.???.😉

One Version mentions this daughter, and another Version DOES NOT EVEN writes the name of this daughter.?.😉 Even after all this, if anyone STILL wants to BRING IN Jahangirnama, then can't help it, as a LOT has been posted on Page-1 already, about these JahangirNama'S' ..

_____________________________________________

Coming to your Point about MUZ conceiving at 42, and giving birth to Aram Bano Begum.

Without writing much, i would only mention one simple thing-->> When the case of Daulat Shah (as per Jahangirnama), is acceptable in giving birth to Aram Banu Begum. Then, why not about MUZ.?. I mean, if MUZ was aging, then similar signs must be visible in Daulat Shad as well.?. Isn't it.?. Or does "anyone" wants to say that Daulat Shad remained in her 20's and "ONLY" MUZ turned out to be in her 40's , and HENCE such a doubt cropped up NOW, on the basis of Age .?.😉 If MUZ was aging , then same applies to Daulat Shad also.?. So, what's the problem.

Finally ending here; we had ALREADY put a note on Page-1 before also, that we are still reading , and posted our present research. We will share if we get something new. The exercise is still on, reading/digging history is always fascinating. Thanks.




i think i should not waste more time of mine 🥱on this authentic not authentic
jahangirnama 😆 i'm waiting the mystery of MULTIPLE Jahangirnamas to be solve
Milk CUSTOM story so you're saying such thing never happened the writers made them by there self or unauthentic source & Daulat Shad is she same age as MUZ? 😕

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