The Fear of Rejection - Page 6

Originally posted by: ann2012

Wonderful post Radhika 👏

Thanks Ann!

Where have you been? So good to hear from you! Thanks so much for posting!!!

The way you have summarized their journey of rejection from start to finish is perfect.

😳

They have hurt each other in equal measure and deserve the equal amount of time for their recovery.

But I have to disagree on a few points in your footnotes.

He did negate her sacrifice. He added that she saved him so she could kill him herself and take revenge. Killing him slowly day by day. Instead of letting him achieve a place in heaven in just one stroke. He not only negated her love in the sacrifice but also equated her to his worst enemy. If this is not a negation of her ultimate sacrifice, then what is?? 😕

Ann, this is the majority sentiment and I respect it. I interpreted it differently, believing that he was not actually negating the act of poison drinking but (negating) the fact that she had returned to life because Jalal had pleaded with her soul. He was at the time of accusing her feeling that she had returned to life for her lover. In my mind, I want to give him the benefit of doubt. 😊 The rest of the words we can ignore as the empty rant of an injured soul. When we are angry with someone, we direct our anger at those issues that we don't like in ourselves at a subconscious level. When he was accusing her of taking revenge and trying to kill him slowly, he was actually hitting out at those feelings in himself in the past few days, but addressed them as if they belonged to Jodha.

Anyway, now it appears as if Jodha herself has forgiven him for that showdown. So we should follow her lead. 😊As she told her mother, "He does not have ill-intentions. He was the victim of a galat fahmi."

Secondly, it is not about making Jalal suffer the same amount as Jodha suffered during Ben track. It is just a defense Jodha has against all the resentment brewing towards her.

I did not mean that Jodha wants Jalal to suffer as much as she did or more/less. I meant that some viewers seem to want that Jalal should suffer for the wrongs he perpetrated on Jodha. I hope I am clear now? 😊

She could forgive him in an instant and go back to Agra. But she needs to recover herself first. Her wounds need to heal.

True

Jalal isn't helping to heal them as he doesn't even understand the reason behind them wholly. Thus, she needs some time away from him. It is well-known that emotional scars like these need a lot of time to recuperate. They can't be forgotten in an instant. So, when the forum asks why doesn't Jodha have super-healing skills, we have to remind ourselves that she is a human just like Jalal. And if Jalal can take his own time to recover than so can Jodha. That is it. Nobody wants him or her to live in turmoil endlessly.

I agree. Like I said earlier, Ann, I gathered an impression that some would like to see him suffer, which is not fair on our part. Jodha needs time to heal and Jalal needs time to understand why she is not heeding to his pleas for forgiveness. Both need a time-out to sort out their internal conflicts, familial pressure, and understand the other's POV. Jalal needs to understand that she needs her sense of individual identity to be recognized and respected. Jodha needs to understand that she needs to communicate her needs to him properly in an amiable manner because only if he knows what she wants can he provide her with that. I think all of us here will agree that he has been broad-minded enough with her so far in agreeing to her wishes when both of them have been on friendly terms.

The lovers need some time apart to get it all sorted. The problem is from both ends, I think. They need to work together on this to gain an everlasting loving relationship 😊

Amen! Let's pray for that to happen in good time.

PS: This is why our elders advised that those who marry in haste, repent at leisure. 😆

Originally posted by: Kaana

Fantastic post Radhika! Thanks for penning it down in such detail.

Originally posted by: MaddyO

Hi Medha,

Thank you for posting! And thank you for including this thread in your Sunday Favorites list. I am so honored. 😳

I agree about negating the vishpaan bit. He basically just told her she did it so she can hurt him more, she did it for taking revenge. After all this he is still thinking she is taking revenge on him!

Maddy, pls see my reply to Ann on this. Here is the link:

http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4001172&TPN=8

It does not matter if Jodha goes to Agra just one day after Jalal, as long as it is of her own choice. She is on this roller coaster ride since marriage and just for once she wants to decide something.

@bold: Agree

@underline: Why only once? I think from now on, she wants to take an active role in decisions related to her and their relationship. This is such a sore issue with many husbands even now. If a wife wants to take her own decision, they feel that she is staking her independence and is showing that doesn't need them anymore.

Jalal is YET to realize that Jodha is not just hurt with him but as much with Agra. How much she has been plotted against. MA truth coming out will make Jalal realize he did not protect Jodha from this. He did not even protect himself from this! They both have been plotted against but the victim and hurt has been mostly Jodha.

@bold: Maybe so. But the truth is, if a husband supports a wife, she can withstand the entire universe plotting against her.

@underline: So far, she has been the victim. Now it's the turn of Jalal to be the victim, as plots unravel and conspiracies are exposed.

Originally posted by: ayushimehra

Hi Ayushi,

Thank you dear, for making such lovely comments. You have fantastic clarity on marriage and relationships and what makes them tick. 👏

agree you, yes jodha is a humen being. wounds have to take time to heel-up, not jalal when will say forgive me, suddenely some MIRACLE will happen & jodha will forgive him. its time to check , what is happening in inner. inner disturbance gives more pain. so create some space.

is sorry is a heeling word. its a process. & its takes own Time.

suddenely you speak harsh words. suddenely you realise you are wrong. suddenely you accept, she will forgive you.

why you are ready every time running poistion. Give her some time . some patiance.

You are saying absolutely right! Well, now that he has agreed to let her be and gone back to Agra, Jodha can heal at her own pace, without any undue pressure from him. Though she may face pressure from her family.

My mother used to say that when a married girl returns to her parents' place, the first day, everyone is happy to see her. They pamper her like anything. The second day, they start asking her to chip in with chores. The third day, they ask her when she is returning to her husband's house. 😆

ques will rise, he is giving time, but ans is this, is he insured jodha? which security she wants, , is he tried to give jodha? if not these are questions jalal has to check himself

jodha should also accept, Things or Person not change in seconds, Every personality is different. Both have to realise, this

If we are accepting good things in a partner, then weakness is also we should accept.

weakness is not accept other person. This is a UP-down journey, & journey feels good when

its next to next. when its stops feels irritating.

We can accept the good and bad in a partner, Ayushi, if we have a commitment to the relationship. Jodha is committed to the relationship so far because she has been raised on the belief that marriage is for keeps and an abandoned/divorced wife has no place in society. Jalal's commitment is dicey and apart from this time, at least on 2 previous occasions*, he has suggested that he is ready to give her freedom. Both need to reaffirm their commitment to this relationship because they want to live with each other for the rest of their lives. Not because society expects them to. And Jalal especially has to realize that in the worst case too, divorce or separation is not an option. He has to try to make things work out.

* sword fighting scene early in their marriage and after MC track.

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

Hi Friends,

Last night, many people were disappointed with Jodha's blunt refusal to go back with Jalal. Especially when this refusal was juxtaposed with the image of Jalal supplicating in front of her with a bowed head and folded hands.

Why did Jodha refuse to go back? More importantly, why did she do this in an apparently rude manner? Was Jalal right in accusing her of taking an egoistic stand? Was he himself getting egoistic in walking away? Is trust really the issue between them?

Ever since this track began on March 6 (so one friend informed me), it is becoming more and more difficult to maintain my own neutrality and balance between the two. It is with great difficulty and a lot of help from friends here that I am able to contain my own despondency about a MU that only seems to be becoming worse day by day. When I am on the forum, my own thinking gets clouded by the different views expressed here. But when I woke up this morning, I remembered Jodha's words when she said that No and her conversation with Jalal the night before. And the answer (and there is only one answer) to the above questions was very clear.

• First, we have to stop looking at the faces of these two.
• Secondly, we have to stop giving significance to what they say.

Then only we can actually understand them better. They are both highly emotionally immature and say or react in a childish manner. One of my favorite JJ scenes is therefore the DEK scene after Jo attacks Ben and Jalal in the boat. Jalal and Jodha are separated by a curtain. He doesn't ask directly and she doesn't answer directly. Yet he understands what happened and she understands he knows what happened. This incident is significant because it highlights how they speak to each other thru their eyes and souls. Such soul level talks have been shown many times when he says something in his mind and she replies to him in her mind. The latest example was when he begged her not to go to Amer when she was bidding adieu at the ashram and she replied that she couldn't live with him and had to go.

Coming back to what Jo said, she mentioned 2 things, that he had "left her hand" and that he had called her "charitraheen". Of these, the most important to her is the first, though the second is not far behind. I believe if he had only called her the second but not uttered those words "Hum aapko azaad karte hain", she would not have walked out that night. Because though her self respect and identity was called into question, still as a dutiful wife, she would have remained with her husband. What hurt her the most then was that he had ended their relationship. He had rejected her. We get agitated by the thought that he threw her out in the dead of the night. But to her, day or night didn't matter and the fact that he had asked her to leave didn't matter. Because she herself would not have stayed there till morning after he had rejected her. That is, even if he had not asked her specifically to go, she would have gone. Not for the sake of her self respect but because she had been rejected.

At the core of all the problems in their relationship and the reason why outsiders are able to easily influence them, is their constant rejecting of each other. It is not about love or trust. They have developed enough of these attributes and that's why the relationship is still standing. And no one can ever really develop 100% of these attributes, they are constantly developing and evolving throughout a relationship.

Here is a list of rejections that I could compile (may be you guys can add more):

1. Jodha's rejection of Jalal's faith: Jodha refuses to convert to his faith, which is a very strong rejection even now.

hmm.but how significant is this?After all inter caste marriage was almost unheard of then..and the circumstances of their marriage were more of a political alliance type(if I am not wrong)..In such circumstances,I would've been surprised if she had accepted his faith..She is after all a proud Rajvanshi..And religion had tremendous importance in ppl's lives then,much much more than today 😳..But what was laudable(to an extent) was that Jalal allowed to actively practice her faith 😊..Even if he had not,I doubt she would have ever gone to a mosque/dargah and prayed in the Muslim fashion.Now Jalal was an astute politician and strategist..He got this marriage done for political purposes and strengthening his alliance(am i right)..If so,then making an issue out of religion would have defeated his purpose and pushed him on the backfoot..So,the religious thing...well,Jodha not accepting Islam,is not very surprising and Jall allowing her had its own reasons

2. Jalal's rejection of Jodha as a wife: On the very first night after marriage, he calls her out to sing for his friends and family. He negates her identity as his wife and refuses to give her the respect due to her. He considers her as his property and a toy to entertain himself with.

No clue abt this 😳😳

3. Rejection of physical relations: This is actually a tricky one. Because we were shown that Jalal refuses to touch her saying he doesn't want her to feel special by his touch. But later this was somehow converted to a vachan Jodha takes from Jalal that he will not touch her without her consent. This is again a strong rejection of a spouse. No matter what some may say that apart from this, they are fulfilling all their other obligations. But really no marriage can survive in such a platonic fashion.

No clue abt this 😳😳

4. First experience of rejection for Jodha: When both Jalal and her mother play her around like a tennis ball, neither of them being keen to have her with them, Jodha is shattered for the first time. There comes a time in every married girl's life when she realizes for the first time that she really has no place to call her own - the home she has left behind is her parents' and the home she has come to is her husband's. Neither is her own. This experience intensified her barriers against the world and made her withdraw into a fortress-like shell. Jalal may have saved her physically but she was already dead emotionally.

No clue abt this too 😕😕

5. Rejection of faith/respect/trust: This was the mutual ghrina period. Yes, it was mutual and not just from Jo's side. They refused to accord each other the basic respect and trust due to a spouse. This is separate from a lack of trust. These are 2 different things. You may want to trust someone but are unable to do so because of circumstances perhaps. But if you mentally refuse to trust someone, then even if circumstances support them, you still do not trust them. Hence you are more easily swayed by other people into distrusting your partner. Everyone knows how true this is in Jalal's case. So I won't repeat that. But it's true for Jodha too. For instance, she knows he will not break his zubaan for anything in the world. Yet she refuses to trust him in the body heat track. She rejects the notion that he can be trusted in this instance. (Both before she catches hypothermia and after.)

No clue abt this tooo

6. Rejection of love: Both have fought against their feelings of love and tried desperately to reject their own feelings and tried to build barriers against this all-consuming emotion. (Abhay captured this beautifully in his sentence: It's difficult to know the exact moment you fall in love, but it's more difficult to accept that you have fallen in love. These are the approximate words, not the exact words. 😊 )

Need i repeat myself

7. Rejection Night 2: The famous dhakka. (The first night being the first night in Agra post marriage) Enough and more has been said about this, so I won't go into it. I will just say that he felt it to be not only a physical rejection but an emotional one too, a rejection of him as a person, a rejection of his newly discovered love. Even though Jodha cannot be blamed here directly, that cannot negate the effect of the rejection upon him. Just as Jalal cannot be wholly blamed for his "crimes" against her, but their effect on her psyche cannot be negated.

Agree with what u say..have seen parts of this

8. Second experience of a personal rejection by Jodha: The Ben track shook Jodha because she felt the strong effects of a personal rejection by Jalal for the first time, in spite of the barriers she had built against him. Especially the famous words that he would not look back at her even if she was dying. Unlike others who believe the public humiliations took their toll on her, I believe she could withstand anything except Jalal's neglect/lack of attention to her. She still didn't have any awareness of her latent feelings for him but the first stirrings had begun. And post this track, she was able to forgive him easily and move ahead because she no longer felt rejected by him. Not because he had started trusting her or whatever.

I agree..saw some changes in Jo's behavoiur here..but am unable to understand them fully coz of lack of a clear background

9. Third rejection for Jodha: The famous night when Jalal threw her out of his life. The qualifying phrase is the underlined part. This is more devastating than being thrown out of the palace at night, especially when Jodha has just discovered her love for him. She is still unable to come to terms with the fact that he can easily evict her from his life any moment he chooses. That's why she says that he has always decided on his own when he wants to throw her out and when he wants her back. This is what is hurting her at the moment more than anything else. Until she is sure that he will not reject her and throw her out of his life again, she will be unable to live with him peacefully. A person can live with anything, even allegations on her character (already seen in the false pregnancy case) and loss of identity/self-respect (seen in many tracks). But she cannot accept a total personal rejection by the one who is now her entire universe.

I agree that she is terribly hurt here...I don't know the background and baggage both have...But assume their baggages are equally heavy and hurt vs hurt has balanced out...I'd say that Jallu's accusation was undoubtedly horrible and wld shake any woman...Esp a proud RAajvanshi..It wld have been a big blow to her...But for her part..She contributed big time to the misunderstanding here...Maybe she wants to live in denial...but there is no doubt that she had half the blame here...I amnot saying that she shld have come clean abt meeting her bro..maybe she was scared and didn't completely trust Jalal's reaction or believe that he wld understand..which is fine...But once he asked her(even after all his accusations) she cld have tried to explain something to him...either when he was doing the shouting...like when he asks"kya aap usse mihabbat karte hain"..It was the killer question and she knew exactly what he was thinking when he asked that...i mean how could anyone not?..then why say yes..why not say" ek bhai ki tarah pyar karte hain or some such thing"..Just bcoz Jallu wanted to play 20 questions with her doesn't mean she should oblige...one clear word and everything wld've been sorted out and that word shld've come from Jo..I can't believe that she in shock coz she had initiated this thing and shld have been prepared to face the consequences..she also got big big hints that things were getting bad between her and Jallu...Another imp point is that before she leaves she knows that Jallu has found out that the man she met is her bro(Moti told her that..or was that also Jallu's dream?,not sure)Either ways,I thinks she shld have taken a little more effort for further clarification of this issue,rather then being so agyakaari on this..Being wise is and understanding a situation is more important than being agyakari...Knowing that she had made a mistake,i thoght she didn't take sufficient effort to clear her side of the story...she went into her world of ,omg he insulted me ,he rejected me and accused me...If she had maintained a cool head(which she mostly does)she wld've realised her fault and tried to explain it to him...I tht some effort was lacking here...

10. Final rejection for Jalal: Jodha's continual refusal to "forgive" him and accompany him to their home is hurting Jalal to the core. Many are viewing his reactions as his ego or his lack of understanding/empathy with Jodha. What they fail to see is that what I have mentioned in bold in Point 9 applies to him too. For him, there is now no life without Jodha. He is now an "empty shell" just like her. He may go on with his life, seemingly as usual, but inside he is as dead as Jodha is.

Agree with u on this

11. Final rejection for Jodha: When Jalal turned his back to her and walked away from her life, back to his own world, I cannot even envisage what she must have felt at that moment. She had gathered her entire strength to be able to tell him that she couldn't take his love-hate temperament. The "rudeness" was the instrument she used to be able to pull those words from deep inside her. May be she felt he would assuage her at that moment that he would never do that again to her. Jalal, who was too caught up in his own sense of dejection, couldn't reassure her at the moment the way she wanted him to. He was himself feeling the full impact of the earthquake that had hit him when she said a firm No.

I think Jo is behaving like an immature 6 yr old who has just been denied his favourite candy and is trying to get even with his mom in his own kiddish way...The kid looks to the mom for attention and craves for her love but will also do the dumbest of things at times which wld irritate the mom further...Oh Jo!!Grow up,is what i felt like saying to Jo's reaction on this track..Immature and childish...In amer and Mathura,she has had time to dwell on things and how,what ,when and why it happened...If she needed time to sort this out,she shld have had an adult to adult convo with him..Tell him that she is hurt..that she may not be able to forgive him,but she needs time to sort it out...also very importantly tell him to stop following her as it wld not help solve the matter...She cld've even told him that they shld meet a month or so later to see if things were better and if she was able to move on...That wld have a mature reaction..i wld've respected her for that..Instead she leads him awild goose chase showering the choicest of abuses and insults at him at every turn...It is ridiculous..She needs to sort herself out first..find out what she wants...iF she is unceratin as to whether she can forgive and forget,then let him know and ask for time...Instead she breaks her castle with her own hands....

I know I am sounding anti Jo here...but in this track I have little empathy for Jo and her behaviour,unless she has a very torrid and tormented past leading to this kind of childish "i'll get even with u "behaviour..I don't know what she has been thru and will reserve my comments on that,but here I am inclined to tilt in favour of Jalal

These two shall only now start to realize the impact of their mutual rejection when they are separated, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally. The precap shows how abject and lifeless they have become. Where do they go from here? Time alone can weaken their self-imposed barriers towards accepting their love and letting go of their fear of rejection one more time.

A word of caution: With time, they may yearn enough for each other to let go their fears and become one again. But does this mean they would have developed an implicit faith that they will never mistrust each other again or that they will never reject each other again? No. Such faith cannot come until they live together and weather many a storm in their lives together. Faith is an evolution, not a ready-to-use commodity.

Footnotes:

1. The vishpan allegation: Many people believe that Jalal negated the act of vishpan by Jodha. I believed so too. But Jaya made a post in which she clarified this doubt. He actually said that he had believed that she had drunk that poison because she loved him and indeed he had tried to get her to confess this many times earlier. This statement ended here. He followed this with another statement in which he said that he believed that his love had brought her back to life. But that he was now mistaken about this aspect. Now he felt that the other man's love had brought her back to life. These 2 statements are to be taken separately. He is not saying she drank the poison to take revenge on him. He is saying that if he had taken that poison and died, he would not have suffered so much. But after realizing that she had come back to life because she wanted to live for someone else, he was suffering more, dying every minute, as it were. Thanks Jaya for clearing this in my mind at least.

2. I have tried to take as balanced a view as possible about both Jalal and Jodha here. May be I have slipped somewhere, but it's not deliberate or intentional and I am open to being corrected.

3. Let's not compare their suffering or try to employ the an-eye-for-an-eye sense of justice here. When people say, Jalal took so long to come out of the dhakka, so he must give Jodha also the same time, then I feel sad. Just because one person has already suffered, should we force another person to also suffer equally? Is this our humanity? If Jodha has suffered, Jalal must make amends and reassure her that it will not recur. But our wanting him to suffer too is not justified.

4. There is actually an atmosphere of sadistic glee in the forum that Jalal will now realize what his relatives are really like and see the real face of MA. True, he may realize the value of Jodha in his life and understand her loyalty to him in spite of his boorish behavior to her. But he will also be totally broken to discover that the people closest to him, those he had trusted the most, and done so much for, have stabbed him in the back. (For Caesar too, the backstabbing itself was not as painful as the fact that it was done by his dearest friend Brutus.) He had been extremely distressed when he learnt of Bairam Khan's treachery. This time, the sense of loss will be compounded because he will realize that he has lost his dearest wife due to his own misplaced trust in the wrong people. I think if we cannot understand his grief, we should at least refrain from mocking him for trusting the wrong people. Can we claim to know in our lives whom to trust and whom not to? MA is to him his mother. Can anyone of us ever imagine that someone whom we worship as our mother would betray us?

To those of you who have read till here, a big thanks! 😊 Let's please be more understanding of human nature and follies and not crucify JJ at the altar of our expectations from them. They seem to be more understanding of each other's position than we are of them.

Originally posted by: john909

after friday's episode, it is jodha who clearly is struggling with her emotions and has ginormous ego. even though it was jalal who was standing with head bowed down and folded hands, it was jodha who was the loser in that situation because jalal's love was winning and her ego lost because she lost the opportunity to go back to the person she claims to love. jalal was so right in saying that she didnt even make any attempts after one refusal while he has been making repeated attempts till he succeeds. jalal was right in leaving from there because he is a king first and he cant run after jodha all the time leaving his duties to his people and if jodha cant get that in her head, she is not fit to be a queen.

i have seen that people saying that jodha is not perfect and all that. well then why do people expect jalal to be perfect. he made a mistake and he is very sorry for it and he even tried to rectify it unlike jodha who even refuses to acknowledge her mistake. so using the human defense for defending jodha is hypocritical coz same thing is applied for jalal and it is completely crazy to expect jalal to be perfect all the time and not make mistakes while jodha has full freedom to make mistakes coz she is only human..👎🏼

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

not another sunshine joke ... pls explain to me too!

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0